The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[3putter]

This is a serious question to anyone who might have an intelligent answer. I can understand using PED in baseball, cycling, running, but what would be the point of using PED in golf?

[Golfingdad]

This is a serious question to anyone who might have an intelligent answer. I can understand using PED in baseball, cycling, running, but what would be the point of using PED in golf?

The answer I've always heard - and maybe this is mostly true about HGH specifically, I don't know - is that it helps you recover from injuries faster.  (Which is another reason why it seems more likely Tiger's not on the juice - has he recovered yet from any of his injuries in the past several years?  Doesn't seem so.  My suggestion would be for Tiger to START taking HGH RIGHT NOW!!!)

[Gboroman]

I don't understand why you guys make arguments like this.  Nobody except those that personally know Tiger (and perhaps @colin007) has said anything that would go against this premise.

Of course it's possible he took them, and of course, in this day and age, a lot of people wouldn't be that surprised.

But that's not remotely the same as saying that evidence suggests its possible, or even likely.  That is what you guys are really saying, and the "evidence" you have is monumentally circumstantial.  It's either A) he is associated with somebody who's associated with steroids, or B) he shows all the signs of aging, which apparently are also signs of steroid use.

Both are very weak arguments in favor of him having used steroids.

And, I don't understand why you are starting to defend Tiger so vigorously.  I thought you were just sitting on the sidelines being the classroom clown.  Again, you extrapolate something we say into something else.  No, stop it.  It's not what we are "really saying."

I've listed several indicators (not evidence) that insinuate it's possible. These are NOT just signs of aging.  I've cited a medical article (and there are many others) that list these indicators and state that, by themselves, none of these signs indicate that someone is taking anabolic steroids, but they could alert others to the possibility that drug abuse is occurring.  That's from the medical article, not my words.  I don't know what other "strong" arguments you are looking for.  I don't have any pictures of him juicing, receipts for steroid purchases or eyewitnesses to present to the court.  All I have is public observations and comparisons to what physicians say are effects and side effects of steroid use.  What else would convince you that it is likely, or even possible, that he took PED's?  Please...I'm at a loss.

[iacas]

I stand by my insinuations.  These are indicators.  You cannot say he does not exhibit all of these:

Increased muscle mass - Doesn't mean he didn't get that from regular diet and body building techniques.  Also, doesn't mean he had other help from PEDs.

Hair loss - yes, he has hair loss

Mood swings/aggressiveness - yes.  I'll add bizarre behavior during his episode of infidelity

Body tissue breakdown in later life - He's not even 40 yet.  Steroids can cause premature aging.

You seem to miss the fact that they're weak indicators at best. Specifically as it relates to Tiger Woods:

Increased muscle mass - yes, but not so much that it can't be explained by just working out. So file this under "negative."

Hair loss - yes, but he's been losing his hair for 15+ years now. His entire family has hair loss issues. So file this under "negative" as well.

Mood swings - Does he curse on the golf course? Yeah. Has he EVER been accused of being violent or having anything remotely close to roid rage? No. So another negative.

Body tissue breakdown - Is it far more than we'd expect from someone who has had a bad knee his entire life, who has hit thousands of golf balls per week at really fast speeds for 30+ years consecutively, etc.? No. So file under negative.

Recovery time - has Tiger recovered from any surgery or procedure faster than is to be expected? No? Another negative.

Increased head size - is Tiger's head larger or has it grown appreciably in size? No. Another negative.

Seriously, you're batting 0-for-however many things you want to come up with. None of the things you list are even venturing into "likely" indicators, and even if they were, they're just that - indicators. But they don't even cross that threshold of being likely to be positive.

I don't understand why you guys make arguments like this.  Nobody except those that personally know Tiger (and perhaps @colin007) has said anything that would go against this premise.

Of course it's possible he took them, and of course, in this day and age, a lot of people wouldn't be that surprised.

But that's not remotely the same as saying that evidence suggests its possible, or even likely.  That is what you guys are really saying, and the "evidence" you have is monumentally circumstantial.  It's either A) he is associated with somebody who's associated with steroids, or B) he shows all the signs of aging, which apparently are also signs of steroid use.

Both are very weak arguments in favor of him having used steroids.

Seriously… it's certainly possible. But if I had to vote (and I did above in the poll), there's no way there's enough evidence for any reasonable person to vote "yes."

So yeah, I'm calling all of you who voted "Yes" unreasonable. You let your dislike for Tiger push a teeny amount of evidence over the line so that you could leap from a tenuous Point A all the way to Z. Or at least… whatever the 14th letter of the alphabet is (N).

Finchem was asked about Tiger's name being on that list. I think Finchem decided it best to not reveal anyone's name on the list. Why not just end all the speculation? Just a hunch, because that list is held by others too.

Funny how Tiger won his last major in mid June 2008 in the event just prior to testing on the PGA Tour. Then he wins his last PGA event of any kind right about when the knowledge of that Biogenesis list surfaces. You can't make this stuff up.

Sure you can. Find a reputable source to back up the first claim, because from what I've seen… it's made up.

Tiger pushed for drug testing. He was reportedly tested in late 2008 , and was reportedly tested five times in 2013 . Now, I don't know about you, but I'm gonna put the quality of those two links over an unnamed source at "terezowens.com" citing that "the PGA" is not doing something re: Tiger Woods…

But hey, @9iron , it's okay. You don't like Tiger Woods. Almost every post you make here is about him. You don't like the guy, you want to see him brought down, and so you take any tiny shred of anything and blow it out of proportion, even though you might not even convince a judge to let you press charges let alone win a court case.

Good for you. If it makes you happy, cool. But be honest with yourself about what you're doing.

The answer I've always heard - and maybe this is mostly true about HGH specifically, I don't know - is that it helps you recover from injuries faster.  (Which is another reason why it seems more likely Tiger's not on the juice - has he recovered yet from any of his injuries in the past several years?  Doesn't seem so.  My suggestion would be for Tiger to START taking HGH RIGHT NOW!!!)

Seriously, let's get together and ship him some or something!

And, I don't understand why you are starting to defend Tiger so vigorously.  I thought you were just sitting on the sidelines being the classroom clown.  Again, you extrapolate something we say into something else.  No, stop it.  It's not what we are "really saying."

Then you're confusing a lot of people.

And I don't see @Golfingdad as "defending Tiger vigorously" at all. He, I, and some others are simply baffled at the modest level of "proof" some people need to vote "Yes."

Like your list… it's laughable to me. And the objections people raise to your list seem to go right over your head.

Tiger's going bald… OH MY! Alert the presses! Sheesh.

I've listed several indicators (not evidence) that insinuate it's possible.

I have yet to see anyone here state "it's not possible." So can that straw man argument, please. I think everyone here would admit that it's possible. Only a few people here would admit that it's "likely."

These are NOT just signs of aging.

They don't rise to the level of indicating steroid use, either. If I was given a checklist, I'd have voted "no" or at the worst "inconclusive" for "presence of indicator" to each of them. Genetically, Tiger's going to lose his hair. SO that's one of the "inconclusive" ones.

[Golfingdad]

And, I don't understand why you are starting to defend Tiger so vigorously.

I'm doing no such thing.  I even said in the post you quoted (and a couple others as well) that it's entirely POSSIBLE that Tiger has taken steroids.  I just think it's not terribly likely at this point, given the lack of evidence.

I thought you were just sitting on the sidelines being the classroom clown.

Nope.  That was just me saying that I wasn't really trying to get into the little meta-argument between you and boogie.  I was trying to say that that post was just a joke and not meant to be a sign of me taking anybodys side.

What else would convince you that it is likely, or even possible, that he took PED's?  Please...I'm at a loss.

I said in the very post you quoted that it's possible - and I've never had any opinion otherwise.  But likely?  None of the "indicators" you list are red flags.  And, as @turtleback mentioned previously, there is no performance indicator either like there was for Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and those guys.  We was good while he was younger and as he's gotten older he's gotten worse and less healthy.

[Gboroman]

This is a serious question to anyone who might have an intelligent answer. I can understand using PED in baseball, cycling, running, but what would be the point of using PED in golf?

The answer I've always heard - and maybe this is mostly true about HGH specifically, I don't know - is that it helps you recover from injuries faster.  (Which is another reason why it seems more likely Tiger's not on the juice - has he recovered yet from any of his injuries in the past several years?  Doesn't seem so.  My suggestion would be for Tiger to START taking HGH RIGHT NOW!!!)

I think you have to remember that physical fitness in golf is a relatively recent phenomenon. Tiger and Vijay are noted as being at the forefront (Hmm, that's interesting...  OK OK don't throw things at me, I'm not insinuating anything there).  Anyway, I think vanity, intimidation and gaining or keeping an edge might go into it without really knowing what the short term and long term effect would be.  I think pro golfers saw the potential benefits and results of at least staying physically fit, and that continues today.  I don't think pros see the need to get linebacker big or any benefit of PED's.

With Tiger, and this is PURE CONJECTURE (so don't get overly sensitive, here), I think he was so wispy thin and unpopular with the ladies during college, he might have been attracted to something that would help him look like and become a stud.  It would make sense with his later womanizing.  Again, pure conjecture, no evidence, but it could be a possible motive.

[Phil McGleno]

With Tiger, and this is PURE CONJECTURE (so don't get overly sensitive, here), I think he was so wispy thin and unpopular with the ladies during college, he might have been attracted to something that would help him look like and become a stud.  It would make sense with his later womanizing.  Again, pure conjecture, no evidence, but it could be a possible motive.

Tiger had a girlfriend in college. I think it was the last brunette he ever dated. The thing with you and others like you is that you take this conjecture and tiny scraps of hints and vote YES in the poll which implies that you are at least 51% CERTAIN.

[colin007]

I don't understand why you guys make arguments like this.  Nobody except those that personally know Tiger (and perhaps @colin007 :-P ) has said anything that would go against this premise. Of course it's possible he took them, and of course, in this day and age, a lot of people wouldn't be that surprised. But that's not remotely the same as saying that evidence suggests its possible, or even likely.  That is what you guys are really saying, and the "evidence" you have is monumentally circumstantial.  It's either A) he is associated with somebody who's associated with steroids, or B) he shows all the signs of aging, which apparently are also signs of steroid use. Both are very weak arguments in favor of him having used steroids.

I do know Tigs, we Skype every night before we go to bed. :-) Listen. Guys that roid up are much bigger. That's just a fact. He's not that big, he's really not.

[Gboroman]

You seem to miss the fact that they're weak indicators at best. Specifically as it relates to Tiger Woods:

Increased muscle mass - yes, but not so much that it can't be explained by just working out. So file this under "negative."

Hair loss - yes, but he's been losing his hair for 15+ years now. His entire family has hair loss issues. So file this under "negative" as well.

Mood swings - Does he curse on the golf course? Yeah. Has he EVER been accused of being violent or having anything remotely close to roid rage? No. So another negative.

Body tissue breakdown - Is it far more than we'd expect from someone who has had a bad knee his entire life, who has hit thousands of golf balls per week at really fast speeds for 30+ years consecutively, etc.? No. So file under negative.

Recovery time - has Tiger recovered from any surgery or procedure faster than is to be expected? No? Another negative.

Increased head size - is Tiger's head larger or has it grown appreciably in size? No. Another negative.

Seriously, you're batting 0-for-however many things you want to come up with. None of the things you list are even venturing into "likely" indicators, and even if they were, they're just that - indicators. But they don't even cross that threshold of being likely to be positive.

First of all, I don't hate Tiger Woods.  I enjoy watching him compete and I think he has been great for the game of golf and the touring pros' professions.  I hope he can come back and beat Jack's record.  But, there are many on here who have their blinders on, their head in the sand and just don't want to even consider the possibility that Tiger used some form of PED.  It is telling that you say "0-for-however many things you want to come up with." How about if I came up with 5 more?  10? 100?  What would it take? Once again, I don't have pictures, eye-witnesses or receipts.  Seriously, what would it take?  All I have is what we all observe and you disagree with that.  Obviously, you are pre-disposed to disagree with any, or any other, indicators I come up with, so it doesn't matter.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gboroman

First of all, I don't hate Tiger Woods.

Where in the post you quoted did I say that? I looked at the last three pages and I've never said that. You did back on page 7… I did not.

But, there are many on here who have their blinders on, their head in the sand and just don't want to even consider the possibility that Tiger used some form of PED.

Stop

Utter and complete bullshit that we've now dispelled multiple times .

It is telling that you say "0-for-however many things you want to come up with."

The only thing telling about that is how weak the "evidence" needs to be in order for some people to vote "Yes" in the poll. That's it.

My point in saying you were "0-for" was to point out how even your list of "indicators" wasn't really even very good. You missed the mark and mischaracterized all of them.

[Golfingdad]

Of course it is possible!!  You think that there is anybody here that would disagree with THAT statement?

Of course it's possible he took them, and of course, in this day and age, a lot of people wouldn't be that surprised.

I'm doing no such thing.  I even said in the post you quoted (and a couple others as well) that it's entirely POSSIBLE that Tiger has taken steroids.

I said in the very post you quoted that it's possible - and I've never had any opinion otherwise.

But, there are many on here who have their blinders on, their head in the sand and just don't want to even consider the possibility that Tiger used some form of PED.

Are you sure you are actually reading our posts or are you just waiting until they're up so you can shout some more?

[9iron]

This is a serious question to anyone who might have an intelligent answer. I can understand using PED in baseball, cycling, running, but what would be the point of using PED in golf?

The answer I've always heard - and maybe this is mostly true about HGH specifically, I don't know - is that it helps you recover from injuries faster.  (Which is another reason why it seems more likely Tiger's not on the juice - has he recovered yet from any of his injuries in the past several years?  Doesn't seem so.  My suggestion would be for Tiger to START taking HGH RIGHT NOW!!!)

It isn't just shorter recovery times, it is also:

• lessened fatigue and increased stamina and endurance.
• increased mental acuity and endurance

Consider that even video gamers are starting to discuss how to regulate PED's, you know that certain PED's aid in this way. Take Adderall, for example. In 2012 there were mopre NFL suspensions for Adderall than any other drug, and Adderall is specifically designed to help increase mental awareness.

Originally Posted by iacas

Tiger pushed for drug testing. He was reportedly tested in late 2008, and was reportedly tested five times in 2013. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm gonna put the quality of those two links over an unnamed source at "terezowens.com" citing that "the PGA" is not doing something re: Tiger Woods…

Lance Armstrong also claimed to have pushed for stronger testing, and he sang from the Mountains he rode on that he was the most tested athlete in the world. He is a primary reason I stopped listening to athletes claiming innocense on this subject. Too many have cried wolf to fall for that nonsense.

BTW, the Tour's version of PED testing is a joke. In Feb. 2013 54 Tour players, 25% of the Tour, were asked when they were last tested "off site". Turns out none of them had ever once been tested "off site". Contrast that to any NCAA or Olympic athlete. I love Golf, but the Tour's testing policies are a total joke.

[iacas]

Lance Armstrong also claimed to have pushed for stronger testing, and he sang from the Mountains he rode on that he was the most tested athlete in the world. He is a primary reason I stopped listening to athletes claiming innocense on this subject. Too many have cried wolf to fall for that nonsense.

Whoopty doo. That's still not evidence.

Nor is your stuff about video gamers. That's just what PEDs can do for people. You have no actual hard evidence, and yet, because of how you seem to feel about Tiger Woods, you leap from a shaky point A to somewhere between N and Z.

[Fourputt]

I'd sure hate to have some of these guys on any jury with me.  We'd never come to a not guilty verdict unless the evidence was simply nonexistent.  If the guy was walking down the same street as where the crime occurred, they'd be certain of his guilt, especially if he was bald and well muscled.

[9iron]

Whoopty doo. That's still not evidence.

Nor is your stuff about video gamers. That's just what PEDs can do for people. You have no actual hard evidence, and yet, because of how you seem to feel about Tiger Woods, you leap from a shaky point A to somewhere between N and Z.

You must be a miond reader Erik, because you continually claim to know how people feel about Tiger Woods. Kinda weak. The guy is a golfer to me, no more or less. And again, this isn't a trial so no opne needs "evidence". Like the other gentleman, I don't have Pics. Guess that is proof it never happened, huh? LOL.

You guys started the thread asking people what they believe. Now you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm doing no such thing.  I even said in the post you quoted (and a couple others as well) that it's entirely POSSIBLE that Tiger has taken steroids.

Well waddya know! I said the same thing and you went off on me. Too funny.

[iacas]

I'd sure hate to have some of these guys on any jury with me.  We'd never come to a not guilty verdict unless the evidence was simply nonexistent.  If the guy was walking down the same street as where the crime occurred, they'd be certain of his guilt, especially if he was bald and well muscled.

Seriously.

You must be a miond reader Erik, because you continually claim to know how people feel about Tiger Woods.

Untrue. I've said " seem to feel" and I'm basing that on a fairly substantial amount of the posts you've made on the guy. That's almost all you ever talk about here, and it's almost always negative toward Tiger.

The guy is a golfer to me, no more or less. And again, this isn't a trial so no opne needs "evidence".

Yes you do. It's a discussion. You have on opinion, and if you want to participate beyond "troll" level you should back that opinion with something. The more substance, the better.

You guys started the thread asking people what they believe. Now you know.

Well waddya know! I said the same thing and you went off on me. Too funny.

Ha ha. Uhhh, no.

Edit: @billchao addresses this below.

[billchao]

Well waddya know! I said the same thing and you went off on me. Too funny.

Next time, try taking a guy's quote in its entirety, instead of just pulling a part of it out of context. Here, I went ahead and did it for you: [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/120#post_1107341"]I'm doing no such thing.  I even said in the post you quoted (and a couple others as well) that it's entirely POSSIBLE that Tiger has taken steroids. I just think it's not terribly likely at this point, given the lack of evidence.[/b] [/quote]See? You and Drew have completely different points of view. I went ahead and emphasized the distinction.

[turtleback]

You actually get my point. I never said he "did" PED's.I technically didn't even say I believed he did PED's. What I said is that I believed it was possible he did PED's, which I stand behind. Despite all the claims to the contrary, that is what I actually wrote. That it is possible. People can place what ever value on that they wish. I won't be offended one bit.

I never said that 9iron beat his wife.  I technically never even said I believed he beat his wife.  What I said was that it was POSSIBLE that he beat his wife, which I stand behind.

Now, you get it.  There is a difference between argument and insinuation, you know.  Maybe it was a "stunningly weak" insinuation, if there was such a thing, which there's not.

Insinuation is worse, IMO, because at its heart it is dishonest.  It says something while retaining deniability because you didn't quite say it.  Just like 9iron did above.  It is a tactic which will sometimes work with people who aren't too smart, around here the people who play that game end up with no credibility (cf. 9iron).

I had to look up this word, because I'm an engineer lacking much of a vocabulary:

I guess you're stating that @Golfingdad is a little too seductive in his responses? If so, I agree. @Golfingdad has a history of being overly seductive. . .

Only an engineer would confuse a handbook of psychological disorders with a dictionary.  LOL

You must be a miond reader Erik, because you continually claim to know how people feel about Tiger Woods. Kinda weak. The guy is a golfer to me, no more or less.

What utter nonsense.  No reasonable person could read your posts on this board and come to any conclusion other than that you dislike him intensely.  It is obvious to everyone.