Golfers Are Consistent - A Golfer's Good and Bad Swings Look the Same and Are Repeatable

[JGus]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

And you'd be wrong, and here's what I mean by that:

• I could hand you any club and have you swing it, and your buddies would all identify you every time from 200 yards away.
• If I could erase the ball from the video, you wouldn't be able to tell me what the result of that swing was, and all swings would look virtually identical.

In my mind I agree that I am wrong, but what I feel tells me differently.  But also agree with your statement that "Feel Ain't Real".  

I wouldn't bet that I could tell the difference, unless I knew it was one of those swings that I spin out on and my left foot ends up behind my right, I definitely know the result of that swing.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

It's about golfers who just play golf but still complain about their lack of consistency.

And ^^^^ is exactly what I do, or at least have had the mindset of, but I think it's time for a new way of thinking!  

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't think you are in the different positions you seem to think you are. I'd wager on that, unless again you're either actively experimenting or literally trying to do something different.

Feel ain't real, as you know.

And no thanks, I wouldn't take that wager, i'm not confident enough that I am right, other than when I am practicing and get frustrated.

[mvmac]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:07 AM, JGus said:

The part I disagree with is accepting, at this moment in time, that I have a consistent and repeatable swing just because I have played as long as I have, so yes I would be one of those students that would make this statement.

You can consistently have inconsistent results with a consistent swing. Having a consistent swing doesn't mean it's a "good" swing or that it will lead to good golf shots.

I consistently do the same crap moves over and over again, it takes time and a lot of deep practice to make lasting changes.

On 4/24/2017 at 8:07 AM, JGus said:

My main struggle, even after lessons, is being able to execute the same swing twice.

How do you know this? Are you filming your swing or just going by results?

You can easily prove this to yourself. Film ten swings in a row where you're just hitting your stock shot. All the swings will look basically the same even though you might get different results.

On 4/24/2017 at 8:07 AM, JGus said:

From what I feel, some swings I rotate properly, my right elbow drops or moves across my chest, and the left arm feels like it is swinging out, but other swings I don't rotate, my left arm stays really close to my body and I hit off of the toe.  Nothing feels the same as before.  

We're not talking about feel but about how the swing actually looks.

Check out my post in the thread from April 5th, does Hoffman actually look like he's doing anything noticeably different?

[Vinsk]

I certainly see the point here. What I can say is that my instructor was filming me while I was on TrackMan as well. Not only were my TrackMan results all over the place, but my instructor was easily pointing out that my swings varied over a 20 min period from:

way out to in, way in to out. Face closed at the top, face open. Hips square at impact with a flip, and hips open, shoulders square with a nice forward shaft lean.

All along the while I'm hitting beautiful shots, shanks, thins, fades and pulls. With shanks being the predominant fault.

next session I'm hitting solid numbers across the board and swing looks great.

Again, I have no doubt as to the truth of what's been presented, but I have a hard time seeing anything 'consistent' about my swing. No, swingS. 

Golf is hard. (All credit of that phrase to Erik Barzeski).

 

[roamin]

Quote

Vinsk said:

I certainly see the point here. What I can say is that my instructor was filming me while I was on TrackMan as well. Not only were my TrackMan results all over the place, but my instructor was easily pointing out that my swings varied over a 20 min period from:

way out to in, way in to out. Face closed at the top, face open. Hips square at impact with a flip, and hips open, shoulders square with a nice forward shaft lean.

All along the while I'm hitting beautiful shots, shanks, thins, fades and pulls. With shanks being the predominant fault.

next session I'm hitting solid numbers across the board and swing looks great.

Again, I have no doubt as to the truth of what's been presented, but I have a hard time seeing anything 'consistent' about my swing. No, swingS. 

Golf is hard. (All credit of that phrase to Erik Barzeski).

Interesting stuff. The (possible) flaw I see, though, is that TrackMan is showing you the result (at impact) that your swing produces. Without video to prove that each swing was "different", I would say it's just as possible that you're backing up what Erik has said all along -- Your consistent swing produces inconsistent results.

I've been recording my swing on video for almost a year now, and I have seen small changes because of grueling work on a particular piece (over a long period of time), but I've also seen it revert right back two weeks later when I switch priority pieces.

And all along, unless I'm drawing lines and analyzing frame-by-frame (even then, sometimes), and know what to look for, it still looks remarkably similar day in and day out.

I would think folks like Erik, Mike, or other good trainers may see differences in every swing someone takes...they would know what to look for much more than me. It seems to me, it's more that those differences are tiny in many (most?) cases and an existing tendency/pattern/picture is still present in every swing. I could be off-base there, though, but I'm sure they'll correct me if I am. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by roamin
Something screwy happened with the formatting.

[roamin]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

my instructor was filming me...easily pointing out that my swings varied 

Okay, not sure how I missed that.  

[JGus]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

You can consistently have inconsistent results with a consistent swing. Having a consistent swing doesn't mean it's a "good" swing or that it will lead to good golf shots.

I consistently do the same crap moves over and over again, it takes time and a lot of deep practice to make lasting changes.

Agree a consistent swing doesn't always equal a "good" swing or always leads to good results, and I'm sure my swing in its current state is consistently inconsistent as my past few rounds have shown.

I am now able to get to the range a couple times a week after work so I am trying to put in the practice time I haven't been able to in the past, hopefully I will get my swing back to where it needs to be.

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

How do you know this? Are you filming your swing or just going by results?

You can easily prove this to yourself. Film ten swings in a row where you're just hitting your stock shot. All the swings will look basically the same even though you might get different results.

I have filmed my swing a few times, more so when I was taking lessons (before and after), but now that I am at the range more I plan to take more video.  I don't disagree that filming ten swings in a row will basically look the same, with possible different results.  My problem with accepting or fully agreeing that I have a consistent and repeatable swing at this moment in time is more based on swings compared between the 1st tee box and say the 11th, not 10 swings within 5 minutes.  I guess I'll have to film on the range and the course to get the final answer.

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

We're not talking about feel but about how the swing actually looks.

Check out my post in the thread from April 5th, does Hoffman actually look like he's doing anything noticeably different?

I know we're talking about how a swing looks and that I stated the things I feel when I swing, but the feels we have, even though they may not be real in regards to how it actually looks, I still think we can tell based on feels if we swing or don't swing correctly.

I agree that in your post that you can't see a difference in Hoffman's swing, but I don't think it is a fair comparison when stating everyone who has played a certain amount of time has a consistent and repeatable swing, whether it is good or bad.  I have no doubt that you and Erik have the data to back this up, and I am in no way saying you are wrong or am I trying to argue you are.  Like I said earlier, my brain agrees with this, but it's just hard to accept based on how my swing feels throughout a round.  And yes, I know Feel Ain't Real, and I need to approach this differently than I have in the past.

My disagreement with this as I said has more to do with swings during a round, not on the range.  I'm not talking about those small unnoticeable differences that were discussed in the original post, but more so the shots that make you feel like you just want to quit because you can't figure out how it happens.  I don't get frustrated if I push my driver or pull my wedge, I can live with those. But those 3-5 holes during a round where I hit 3 inches behind the ball, top a 3 wood on 3 consecutive tee boxes, but hit nice baby draws from the fairway, blade my wedges, or basically forget how to swing are the things I struggle with when accepting that I have a consistent and repeatable swing.  Now these results may fall into those small unnoticeable differences, it's just hard for me to accept that when the results are so bad, not what I would consider small misses.

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, JGus said:

My disagreement with this as I said has more to do with swings during a round, not on the range.  I'm not talking about those small unnoticeable differences that were discussed in the original post, but more so the shots that make you feel like you just want to quit because you can't figure out how it happens. 

Read more  

Even with those shots, a couple hours into your round, the swing is still going to look the same. In order to change it you'd have to consciously be doing something different and even then it's tough. A noticeable change to your swing on the 13th hole isn't going to randomly occur. 

It has more to do with your ability to time your compensations. You might not be as "sharp" on the back nine as you were starting out, that kind of thing.

7 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Again, I have no doubt as to the truth of what's been presented, but I have a hard time seeing anything 'consistent' about my swing. No, swingS. 

Like I said, you can have a consistent swing and get inconsistent results.

Best example is the one @iacas gives about your buddies being able to recognize your swing from the next fairway over. You're not going to make a swings that vary from recognizable to unrecognizable. 

The example with your instructor is a little different than what we're talking about, you're taking a lesson and working on stuff 

[Vinsk]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

Even with those shots, a couple hours into your round, the swing is still going to look the same. In order to change it you'd have to consciously be doing something different and even then it's tough. A noticeable change to your swing on the 13th hole isn't going to randomly occur. 

It has more to do with your ability to time your compensations. You might not be as "sharp" on the back nine as you were starting out, that kind of thing.

Like I said, you can have a consistent swing and get inconsistent results.

Best example is the one @iacas gives about your buddies being able to recognize your swing from the next fairway over. You're not going to make a swings that vary from recognizable to unrecognizable. 

The example with your instructor is a little different than what we're talking about, you're taking a lesson and working on stuff 

Not exactly Mike. My instructor knows how frustrated I am. He simply said, "Just start hitting some balls like you normally do for a bit." He wasn't interjecting between shots or suggesting anything to try. I was just hitting balls while being filmed and on TrackMan. My take away was noticeably different even to me when I watched the videos. My tempo changed, and my finish position was quite different and easily noticeable among my swings. I understand the 'notice a friend from a distance' idea. But you're not just looking at a swing. You'd recognize that person's size, shape mannerisms.  I bet if you took out the golfer and just showed a club swinging, you couldn't identify who's swing it was unless it was someone like Furyk or Moore.

I completely agree that a consistently bad swing can produce inconsistent results. I just feel that in a sport that is so detailed and affected by such minute differences, a swing that goes back and comes down in two opposite directions isn't considered consistent. Swinging over the top followed by too inside to out is not a consistent swing fault. They are two major flaws that are created by different errors.

[iacas]

@Vinsk, you were getting immediate feedback and thus changing your swing yourself, no?

And if you were just trying to make the same swing, and were not even paying attention to the feedback on the Trackman, then perhaps you're the exception. But even then I'm not convinced that your swings looked all that different, and I'm really not convinced that @JGus's were all that different because they felt different.

There's more variance between a higher handicapper's swings, and while Trackman can show you +3° and -4°… those same numbers sound a lot further apart than they look like on video. It can be the difference between flipping a little early (the -4° club path) and flipping a little late or tipping back a bit… that sort of thing.

(Also, Trackman can give some goofy face numbers if you're not consistently hitting the center of the face, so an experienced operator can cut through that if they watch the ball flight.)

[Vinsk]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Vinsk, you were getting immediate feedback and thus changing your swing yourself, no?

Ah. Now that does make sense and I really didn't consider that. Yes. Based on my ball flight I was making adjustments that I 'felt' were necessary. Aside from shanks, my nemesis, I'm sure the swings were very similar as far as a little fade here, draw there, or straight. I have found that I USUALLY shank due to coming out to in with a closed face. But I do occasionally swing too far to the inside with a closed face as well. It's that difference I have a hard time 'feeling'. 

So I think I'm pretty convinced now. I'm gonna have to agree. 

[GolfLug]

In my experience, the easiest way to recognize consistency is that we almost always consistently keep falling back to the exact same swing faults/patterns.

To elaborate using what I learnt from my own example, habitually I have always picked up the club straight in the air (similar to Rickie Fowler's old swing) and then reroute it back inside in an attempt to bring it back on plane an inconsistent amount (honestly cannot say how deliberate that is and how instinctive it is - depends on what day you ask me).  

Either way, the base fault is the same and consistent - but resulting variance is huge (trust me.. - varying from a huge push block to a pull duck hook and everything in between depending on how I try to 'save' the shot at impact). The varying result always made me think that I was fighting something different with correspondingly different results and experimented with different compensations for a long time.

It took a long time of lot of convincing by @iacas, that I am in effect fighting the exact same ghost each time.

[JGus]

9 hours ago, mvmac said:

Even with those shots, a couple hours into your round, the swing is still going to look the same. In order to change it you'd have to consciously be doing something different and even then it's tough. A noticeable change to your swing on the 13th hole isn't going to randomly occur. 

It has more to do with your ability to time your compensations. You might not be as "sharp" on the back nine as you were starting out, that kind of thing.

This I definitely agree with, and as I said I need to change the way I think about and approach this because I let it affect me on the course.  Instead of thinking that it is small differences I start trying different things to compensate, instead of just relying on and trusting my swing. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

and I'm really not convinced that @JGus's were all that different because they felt different.

Well I know I feel different things, but I agree that doesn't mean it looks different. I just need to keep my head in the game and stay focused from swing to swing when on the course and practice the right things at the range.  If only it would stop freaking raining everyday! 

19 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

In my experience, the easiest way to recognize consistency is that we almost always consistently keep falling back to the exact same swing faults/patterns.

And this may be why it's hard for me to admit I have a consistent and repeatable swing because this is what I feel like I do when I struggle out on the course. When something doesn't feel right or I hit a horrendous shot I start tinkering from swing to swing thinking I reverted back to how it was before.

Another thing that I know I don't have that I think would help me is to establish a consistent and repeatable pre-shot routine so I stay focused on my swing.  I don't do this now, I'll have one then change it or just not do it, hmmm, I may be lacking a little focus.

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, JGus said:

And this may be why it's hard for me to admit I have a consistent and repeatable swing because this is what I feel like I do when I struggle out on the course. When something doesn't feel right or I hit a horrendous shot I start tinkering from swing to swing thinking I reverted back to how it was before.

@JGus, yes, but what you feel and think is changing when you hit a 'horrendous' shot compared to an ok shot is different from what is actually happening. The difference will not be as observable as you think. I can almost guarantee that.

If you were to film your swing and work with a knowledgeable instructor you will be floored how HUGE a change you would have to make feel wise to only see a slight difference in reality. Just sayin..

Edited April 26, 2017 by GolfLug

[iacas]

Also, @JGus, a lot of what a golfer does is informed by the result.

I've recorded golfers flushing a shot and then thinning one. Their tempos and swings aligned almost perfectly in 240 FPS video.

Yet after the one he yelled at himself to "stop rushing it" and after the other he said "there you go, nice and smooth."

[JGus]

4 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

@JGus, yes, but what you feel and think is changing when you hit a 'horrendous' shot compared to an ok shot is different from what is actually happening. The difference will not be as observable as you think. I can almost guarantee that.

If you were to film your swing and work with a knowledgeable instructor you will be floored how HUGE a change you would have to make feel wise to only see a slight difference in reality. Just sayin..

Concur, it's just a hard pill to swallow if you have never thought about it that way.

Just now, iacas said:

Also, @JGus, a lot of what a golfer does is informed by the result.

I've recorded golfers flushing a shot and then thinning one. Their tempos and swings aligned almost perfectly in 240 FPS video.

Yet after the one he yelled at himself to "stop rushing it" and after the other he said "there you go, nice and smooth."

I'm guilty of that  (at myself)

I just need to stop beating myself up and start focusing on the right things.

[GolfLug]

20 minutes ago, JGus said:

Concur, it's just a hard pill to swallow if you have never thought about it that way.

. I can totally empathize. Have lived it.

Slight deviation from topic but having been one the 'thinkerers' are the most self-destructive kind of golfers.

 

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, JGus said:

I just need to stop beating myself up and start focusing on the right things.

Find your priority piece, then work on that.

[Lihu]

Doesn't repeat-ability in the swing somewhat depend upon the stage of competence you are in for a particular priority piece?

If you are in a conscious competent stage in any one particular move, and just "forgot" to do one part of it then it seems like your swing can be different? Not significantly, but just enough to tell it's different?