Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[Golfingdad]

So here is the list of how many guys in the top 20 did not have a win:

2014: 5

2010: 6

2006: 3

2002: 3

1998: 5

1994: 3

1990: 4

1986: 5

1982: 2

I do not see any great sea change there.

Tomorrow's headline:

Lazy Professional Golfers Who Skate By Without Trying To Win UP 200% in 2010 from 1982!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

Yeah, but my friend Bob Sacamano says that the guys who are content with mediocrity are the guys who dont get on Tour in the first place or get shuffled off in short order.

Well done.  Gil is real.

Being a pro golfer that is satisfied with hanging around the top 20 without winning can appropriately be correlated to the invisible man paradox.  Wouldn’t it be cool to live the glamorous life of pro golfer?   HARDLY.  As would it be equally cool to be the invisible man?  HARDLY.   Although being the invisible man might seem cool, the paradox is that your retinas would be transparent and you would be blind.  The same paradox applies to these golfers – sure you get to wear cool labels of fashionable clothing, but wearing the label of “being a top twenty golfer without a win” is the paradox of being a pro golfer that Norman is describing. That’s for damn sure.

Ferguson

This makes no sense.  Also, being that @Phil McGleno is the only person on this thread who has played a PGA tour event, I find it surprising that you discount his opinion so readily.

[Ferguson]

This makes no sense.  Also, being that @Phil McGleno is the only person on this thread who has played a PGA tour event, I find it surprising that you discount his opinion so readily.

I contend this a mental issue, and am therefore trying to support this with real life examples via philosophical approach.

One must look at what really what separates these guys in the middle 20 from the guys that win and continue to win. To do so, one could draw a linear comparison from these pro between golfers to mountain climbers. It’s not funny, but you never hear about bad mountain climbers. And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Reinhold Messner in this discussion. The great climbers like Reinhold Messner would tell you they have no fear when climbing – they look to summit. Moreover, they become one with the spirit of the mountain and always instinctively choose the correct path of ascent. The same could said for these guys, IF they thought like Reinhold Messner. If I could advise these guys – I would say……………choose the right path up the leaderboard, stop wasting time playing silly damn board games, choose the right tournaments, please don’t let fear get the damn best of you, always choose the right club, and more than anything else – believe in yourself.

Ferguson

PS. Gil Anderson’s words: “The power that lies within the game of golf can have a profound effect on every player who has experienced the spirit of it . Regardless of ability level there is a power there that stirs the special something that stimulates the heartfelt enthusiasm and penetrates the soul.”

http://www.goingforeit.com/

[Golfingdad]

I contend this a mental issue, and am therefore trying to support this with real life examples via philosophical approach.

One must look at what really what separates these guys in the middle 20 from the guys that win and continue to win.  To do so, one could draw a linear comparison from these pro between golfers to mountain climbers.  It’s not funny, but you never hear about bad mountain climbers.  And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Reinhold Messner in this discussion.   The great climbers like Reinhold Messner would tell you they have no fear when climbing – they look to summit.   Moreover, they become one with the spirit of the mountain and always instinctively choose the correct path of ascent.   The same could said for these guys, IF they thought like Reinhold Messner.   If I could advise these guys – I would say……………choose the right path up the leaderboard, stop wasting time playing silly damn board games, choose the right tournaments, please don’t let fear get the damn best of you, always choose the right club, and more than anything else – believe in yourself.

Ferguson

How do you know that "these guys" don't think like Mr. mountain climber there?  If you asked them, you think they would say that they are scared to summit win?  Of course not, so why does this guys word mean something to you, but theirs doesn't?

You sure like to throw around names.  Yet, oddly enough, and after multiple requests from @turtleback , you've yet to throw out any names of relevance.  You just keep saying "these guys" without actually naming names.

Who, EXACTLY, are the golfers you are referring to??

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

This makes no sense.  Also, being that @Phil McGleno is the only person on this thread who has played a PGA tour event, I find it surprising that you discount his opinion so readily.

I contend this a mental issue, and am therefore trying to support this with real life examples via philosophical approach.

One must look at what really what separates these guys in the middle 20 from the guys that win and continue to win.  To do so, one could draw a linear comparison from these pro between golfers to mountain climbers.  It’s not funny, but you never hear about bad mountain climbers.  And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Reinhold Messner in this discussion.   The great climbers like Reinhold Messner would tell you they have no fear when climbing – they look to summit.   Moreover, they become one with the spirit of the mountain and always instinctively choose the correct path of ascent.   The same could said for these guys, IF they thought like Reinhold Messner.   If I could advise these guys – I would say……………choose the right path up the leaderboard, stop wasting time playing silly damn board games, choose the right tournaments, please don’t let fear get the damn best of you, always choose the right club, and more than anything else – believe in yourself.

Ferguson

PS.  Gil Anderson’s words: “The power that lies within the game of golf can have a profound effect on every player who has experienced the spirit of it.  Regardless of ability level there is a power there that stirs the special something that stimulates the heartfelt enthusiasm and penetrates the soul.”

http://www.goingforeit.com/

You really like to go off on tangents, don't you.  Apparently you've never read Into Thin Air .

PGA tour golfers are the best of the best.  They got to the tour with a tremendous amount of talent and a massive amount of hard work.  To insinuate that they just coast in the top 20 displays and ignorance of what it takes to get to and stay at that level.  Norman is an egomaniacal blow hard who likes to stir up controversy to keep himself relevant.  I guarantee he would not say this to their faces.

[Abu3baid]

You really like to go off on tangents, don't you.  Apparently you've never read Into Thin Air . PGA tour golfers are the best of the best.  They got to the tour with a tremendous amount of talent and a massive amount of hard work.  To insinuate that they just coast in the top 20 displays and ignorance of what it takes to get to and stay at that level.  Norman is an egomaniacal blow hard who likes to stir up controversy to keep himself relevant.  I guarantee he would not say this to their faces.

True, but at the same time he Has not only played for a long time, but won on tour hasn't he? He has more intimate knowledge of what goes on in the tour than anyone here... He has spoken with and been around a lot more tour players than anyone in this forum. So I'm not ready to immediately dismiss his opinion, because in the end that's all it is. Also, I'm sorry but no tour player is ever going to say yeah I'm coasting either.. And there isn't anyone tracking their every move to confirm they are working their asses off like everyone seems to think they are. So they win a tourney once a year, and then coast! It's believable.. Are they playing hard week in and week out? Yes.. Could they win more if they worked harder? Why not? It could be that these guys superior talent is what is keeping them in the top 20, and not their hard work... I almost would be willing to bet the guy fighting on the web.com is working a lot harder to get on tour than the 20th guy on tour.. Tough to prove? Yes, logical? I think so.. I think the difference is the guy that's 20th is just that much more talented than the other and that's the difference!

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

This makes no sense.  Also, being that @Phil McGleno is the only person on this thread who has played a PGA tour event, I find it surprising that you discount his opinion so readily.

I contend this a mental issue, and am therefore trying to support this with real life examples via philosophical approach.

One must look at what really what separates these guys in the middle 20 from the guys that win and continue to win.  To do so, one could draw a linear comparison from these pro between golfers to mountain climbers.  It’s not funny, but you never hear about bad mountain climbers.  And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Reinhold Messner in this discussion.   The great climbers like Reinhold Messner would tell you they have no fear when climbing – they look to summit.   Moreover, they become one with the spirit of the mountain and always instinctively choose the correct path of ascent.   The same could said for these guys, IF they thought like Reinhold Messner.   If I could advise these guys – I would say……………choose the right path up the leaderboard, stop wasting time playing silly damn board games, choose the right tournaments, please don’t let fear get the damn best of you, always choose the right club, and more than anything else – believe in yourself.

Ferguson

PS.  Gil Anderson’s words: “The power that lies within the game of golf can have a profound effect on every player who has experienced the spirit of it.  Regardless of ability level there is a power there that stirs the special something that stimulates the heartfelt enthusiasm and penetrates the soul.”

http://www.goingforeit.com/

Many years ago, I went to a talk given by Reinhold Messner, his message was far from the Greg Norman statement. It contained ample amounts of humility and appreciation of others in his sport.

[Ferguson]

Many years ago, I went to a talk given by Reinhold Messner, his message was far from the Greg Norman statement. It contained ample amounts of humility and appreciation of others in his sport.

I never drew a line connecting Messner to Norman - god forbid.

Messner is an animal.  A good one.

[Ferguson]

You really like to go off on tangents, don't you.  Apparently you've never read Into Thin Air.

PGA tour golfers are the best of the best.  They got to the tour with a tremendous amount of talent and a massive amount of hard work.  To insinuate that they just coast in the top 20 displays and ignorance of what it takes to get to and stay at that level.  Norman is an egomaniacal blow hard who likes to stir up controversy to keep himself relevant.  I guarantee he would not say this to their faces.

I once had a discussion with Pete Sampras in a restaurant at a benefit. Pete is a heck of a good golfer, and a really nice guy – pretty good tennis player too. We talked about his attitude toward winning. He said point blank that he won many tournaments without his best stuff. He told me that he played the match and won mentally before stepping foot on the court. Think about that. He believed in tons of preparation and mental fitness.

These middle 20 guys would win a hell of a lot more tournaments if they improved their mental fitness.

The Tiger, like Sampras, Like Jordan, like Gretsky, like Nicklaus, like Messner won/scored and climbed to the top because they believed they would.

[dkolo]

[COLOR=000000]I once had a discussion with Pete Sampras in a restaurant at a benefit.[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Pete is a heck of a good golfer, and a really nice guy – pretty good tennis player too.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]We talked about his attitude toward winning.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]He said point blank that he won many tournaments without his best stuff.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]He told me that he played the match and won mentally before stepping foot on the court.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Think about that.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]He believed in tons of preparation and mental fitness.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]These middle 20 guys would win a hell of a lot more tournaments if they improved their mental fitness.[COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]The Tiger, like Sampras, Like Jordan, like Gretsky, like Nicklaus, like Messner won/scored and climbed to the top because they believed they would.[/COLOR]

This is all just a long-winded appeal to authority and narrative building.

[Ferguson]

I am sure we all can agree on the following point: Some people are born to be leaders and some are born to be followers.

Norman’s Statement: “Certain players are happy just going through the motions. They don’t want to be the leader, they would rather be a sheep.”

Like it or not, Norman’s direction in his statement is dead-on balls accurate. His message transcends what is said on the golf channel by so-called analysts. This guy lived as the world’s #1 player. He lived as the biggest loser (AUGUSTA MASTERS loss with Sir Nick). He has seen the bottom and experienced the top. His message is a kick in the can to these guys.

Here is what I read from that article: “Stop being one on the many, stand up and be the ONE.”

Ferguson

22511

[Golfingdad]

These middle 20 guys would win a hell of a lot more tournaments if they improved their mental fitness.

And then the guys that ARE currently winning said tournaments would not.  Would they all of a sudden be "coasting" or not trying as hard?

This is not logical.

[iacas]

All I'm learning is that it's pointless to discuss things with @Ferguson because he takes the words of people unconnected with the modern PGA Tour over the words and actions of those who are actually ON the PGA Tour.

[jbishop15]

You know I was thinking about these players that “seem” to be content with being in the top 20, and not striving for wins.   Maybe they are too freaking distracted?

If you go to the bios on PGATOUR.com, most of these guys have a blog, tweet address, facebook page and many have websites.   If you read about their hobbies, many of them spend far too much time in my opinion playing video games, tweeting and playing board games and face-booking.  During Sunday’s coverage, the commentators were talking about how they tweet here and text there.   The range was shown and 5 players were on their smart phones texting.   If I was their agent or coach, I would strongly advise them to turn off the damn electronic devicesand put away the Monopoly, Settlers of Catan and Fanny Doctor board games and get back on the practice range and concentrate on their games.

Ferguson

I contend this a mental issue, and am therefore trying to support this with real life examples via philosophical approach.

One must look at what really what separates these guys in the middle 20 from the guys that win and continue to win.  To do so, one could draw a linear comparison from these pro between golfers to mountain climbers.  It’s not funny, but you never hear about bad mountain climbers.  And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the name Reinhold Messner in this discussion.   The great climbers like Reinhold Messner would tell you they have no fear when climbing – they look to summit.   Moreover, they become one with the spirit of the mountain and always instinctively choose the correct path of ascent.   The same could said for these guys, IF they thought like Reinhold Messner.   If I could advise these guys – I would say……………choose the right path up the leaderboard, stop wasting time playing silly damn board games, choose the right tournaments, please don’t let fear get the damn best of you, always choose the right club, and more than anything else – believe in yourself.

PS.  Gil Anderson’s words: “The power that lies within the game of golf can have a profound effect on every player who has experienced the spirit of it.  Regardless of ability level there is a power there that stirs the special something that stimulates the heartfelt enthusiasm and penetrates the soul.”

http://www.goingforeit.com/

I am sure we all can agree on the following point:  Some people are born to be leaders and some are born to be followers.

Norman’s Statement:   “Certain players are happy just going through the motions. They don’t want to be the leader, they would rather be a sheep.”

Like it or not, Norman’s direction in his statement is dead-on balls accurate.  His message transcends what is said on the golf channel by so-called analysts.  This guy lived as the world’s #1 player.  He lived as the biggest loser (AUGUSTA MASTERS loss with Sir Nick).  He has seen the bottom and experienced the top.  His message is a kick in the can to these guys.

Here is what I read from that article:  “Stop being one on the many, stand up and be the ONE.”

This is some good trolling, @Ferguson . You are truly a master at this kind of stuff.

[Ferguson]

This is some good trolling, @Ferguson. You are truly a master at this kind of stuff.

I googled trolling and found the definition in the urban dictionary.  Nice try, very funny.  Hardly.  I actually thought you were trying to pay me a compliment.

Should have known.

I will say this: Leading is challenging, it’s uncomfortable, there’s no rule book for it, and it’s the biggest risk you can take in life. It takes a commitment to want to lead regardless of whether you’re doing it “right”. In a nutshell, I believe Norman is saying in his own arrogant way that “ it takes extra effort to win. ”

All I have heard for the last 8-10 years - "this kid could be the next Tiger."

So I ask: are ALL of these players capable of being leaders?

Ferguson

[dkolo]

I googled trolling and found the definition in the urban dictionary.  Nice try, very funny.  Hardly.  I actually thought you were trying to pay me a compliment.

Should have known.

I will say this:   Leading is challenging, it’s uncomfortable, there’s no rule book for it, and it’s the biggest risk you can take in life.  It takes a commitment to want to lead regardless of whether you’re doing it “right”.  In a nutshell, I believe Norman is saying in his own arrogant way that “it takes extra effort to win.”

All I have heard for the last 8-10 years - "this kid could be the next Tiger."

So I ask: are ALL of these players capable of being leaders?

Ferguson

If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win? And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell?

[Ferguson]

If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win? And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell?

I'm going to break it down for you with examples:

If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win?

Woods, Singh, Player, Brian Barnes, the list goes on

---- Hardworking guys that looked to summit and found the summit all by extra effort - fitness, practice, mental toughness and plain old grit.

And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell?

J. B. Holmes, Dan Berger and Charley Hoffman

---- these are the guys that are satisfied with just taking the tour cash and keeping up appearances.  Two missed the cut at the Valspar, methinks?

[dkolo]

I'm going to break it down for you with examples: If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win? Woods, Singh, Player, Brian Barnes, the list goes on ---- Hardworking guys that looked to summit and found the summit all by extra effort - fitness, practice, mental toughness and plain old grit. And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell? J. B. Holmes, Dan Berger and Charley Hoffman ---- these are the guys that are satisfied with just taking the tour cash and keeping up appearances.  Two missed the cut at the Valspar, methinks?

If I'm understanding you, Holmes, Berger, and Hoffman put in the hallowed extra effort and are accused simultaneously satisfied with being mediocre, right?