Ball markers

[Shorty]

What if the marker were just interfering with your stance? One guy had a poker chip right where my foot was going to be and just told me to stand on it after I asked him to move it.

Honestly - I have to wonder about some of the playing partners some guys have. I know you don't always choose them.

I have to say that in a non competition round if I was playing with a jerk like that I'd just walk off the course without saying anything.

I have done it before with club throwers and cheats. It makes a point.

The poker chip ball marker is about as obnoxious as it can get to start with, but to have someone think they don't have to move a marker? Really?

[joekelly]

I doubt you would walk off the course here, where the green fee is US$120, no refund or exchange.  In casual play, suggest you simply move your ball a few inches, putt out and move to the next tee box.  Why let the jerk who won't move his marker get under your skin?

[Ferguson]

1943 steel penny. It will stick to the magnetic clip deely-bob that clips on hat or comes as part of some caps. Good conversation piece.

No kidding? I have used the same 1943 steel penny for nearly 15 years. Many people think it's fake.

[trickyputt]

I have had my ball marker/switchblade divot tool since the late 80's. I recently thought I had lost it, and I swear it messed with my putting game.

[Ferguson]

Speaking of ball markers – did anyone see what happened to David Frost yesterday? The marker was on the green, and while replacing his ball behind the mark, he fumbled and dropped the ball, hitting the marker and the mark moved. He moved the mark back to its original spot, and putted from there. He incurred a one shot penalty. Luckily it was only a bogey. Lehman had a putt to tie on 18 and missed it. If this was posted somewhere else I apologize for the duplicate.

[saevel25]

Speaking of ball markers – did anyone see what happened to David Frost yesterday?

The marker was on the green, and while replacing his ball behind the mark, he fumbled and dropped the ball, hitting the marker and the mark moved. He moved the mark back to its original spot, and putted from there. He incurred a one shot penalty. Luckily it was only a bogey. Lehman had a putt to tie on 18 and missed it.

If this was posted somewhere else I apologize for the duplicate.

I am not sure that required a penalty.

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of placing or replacing the ball, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of placing or replacing the ball or removing the ball-marker. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a or 20-1.

Seems to me that he was in the act of replacing the ball and an accident caused the ball-marker to be moved.

[Ferguson]

I am not sure that required a penalty.  Seems to me that he was in the act of replacing the ball and an accident caused the ball-marker to be moved.

That’s what I thought too. From Frost: "I marked the ball and as I picked it up, the ball just kind of slipped out of my hand, hit the coin and moved it," Frost said. "I knew exactly where it was and I just moved it back and didn't think there was a penalty at all because I knew exactly where it was. WEIRD circumstance.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Speaking of ball markers – did anyone see what happened to David Frost yesterday?

The marker was on the green, and while replacing his ball behind the mark, he fumbled and dropped the ball, hitting the marker and the mark moved. He moved the mark back to its original spot, and putted from there. He incurred a one shot penalty. Luckily it was only a bogey. Lehman had a putt to tie on 18 and missed it.

If this was posted somewhere else I apologize for the duplicate.

I am not sure that required a penalty.

Quote:

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of placing or replacing the ball, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of placing or replacing the ball or removing the ball-marker. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a or 20-1.

Seems to me that he was in the act of replacing the ball and an accident caused the ball-marker to be moved.

If the ball or ball marker is dropped and causes the other one to move, it is a penalty, because dropping them does not constitute part of the "direct act of marking and lifting".

20-1/15

Meaning of "Directly Attributable" in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a

Q.What is meant by the phrase "directly attributable to the specific act" in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a?

A.In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

In Rule 20-3a the phrase means the specific act of placing or replacing a ball in front of a ball-marker, placing a club to the side of a ball-marker or lifting the ball-marker such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball or club, or the lifting of the ball-marker causes the ball or the ball-markerto move.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be "directly attributable" and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

[saevel25]

If the ball or ball marker is dropped and causes the other one to move, it is a penalty, because dropping them does not constitute part of the "direct act of marking and lifting".

I don't see the difference if a golfer doesn't lift up vertically enough and nicks the ball marker (accidentally moving it) than if a golfer lifts the ball about an inch and it slips out of his hand and moves the ball marker. In either scenario the ball is still be lifted.

I'll remember to have a deathly firm grasp on the ball from now on when I want to lift the ball after marking it.

[Ferguson]

I don't see the difference if a golfer doesn't lift up vertically enough and nicks the ball marker (accidentally moving it) than if a golfer lifts the ball about an inch and it slips out of his hand and moves the ball marker. In either scenario the ball is still be lifted.  I'll remember to have a deathly firm grasp on the ball from now on when I want to lift the ball after marking it.

I think the same would apply if you dropped your putter, your hat or a ham sandwich and the ball moved. Anything that moves that marker when you’re not making a move to place the ball is a penalty. I once called a penalty on a guy when he went to tap down his marker and the marker stuck to the bottom of his putter (wet from the morning dew). He disagreed, so we made $ 20 bet. I pulled the rule book out of my bag - he lost $ 20. Man oh man was he angry (at himself).

[Dormie1360]

I don't see the difference if a golfer doesn't lift up vertically enough and nicks the ball marker (accidentally moving it) than if a golfer lifts the ball about an inch and it slips out of his hand and moves the ball marker. In either scenario the ball is still be lifted.

I'll remember to have a deathly firm grasp on the ball from now on when I want to lift the ball after marking it.

The ruling was correct.  Even though both of your examples are "accidents" near the ball if you drop something on a ball or ball marker, if the ball or ball marker moves you are deemed to have moved it other than doing something that is "directly attributable" under the rules.

You just need to be very careful.

[Rulesman]

Anything that moves that marker when you’re not making a move to place the ball is a penalty.

I once called a penalty on a guy when he went to tap down his marker and the marker stuck to the bottom of his putter (wet from the morning dew). He disagreed, so we made $ 20 bet. I pulled the rule book out of my bag - he lost $ 20. Man oh man was he angry (at himself).

20-1/6

Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball

Q. A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A. In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.

Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c ).

[dkolo]

20-1/6

Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball

Q.A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A.In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.

Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

But if, say, he were to be taking practice swings over the marker and the magnetic marker grabbed onto the putter, that'd be a penalty because its movement wasn't part of the marking process. Right?

[Ferguson]

But if, say, he were to be taking practice swings over the marker and the magnetic marker grabbed onto the putter, that'd be a penalty because its movement wasn't part of the marking process. Right?

1 stroke penalty, and the marker goes back to its original spot. NOTE: best to use a non-ferrous putter head.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

I don't see the difference if a golfer doesn't lift up vertically enough and nicks the ball marker (accidentally moving it) than if a golfer lifts the ball about an inch and it slips out of his hand and moves the ball marker. In either scenario the ball is still be lifted.

I'll remember to have a deathly firm grasp on the ball from now on when I want to lift the ball after marking it.

I think the same would apply if you dropped your putter, your hat or a ham sandwich and the ball moved. Anything that moves that marker when you’re not making a move to place the ball is a penalty.

I once called a penalty on a guy when he went to tap down his marker and the marker stuck to the bottom of his putter (wet from the morning dew). He disagreed, so we made $ 20 bet. I pulled the rule book out of my bag - he lost $ 20. Man oh man was he angry (at himself).

You were wrong.  No penalty in this case.  Tapping down the marker is considered as part of the act of marking.

20-1/6

Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball

Q.A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A.In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.

Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

But if, say, he were to be taking practice swings over the marker and the magnetic marker grabbed onto the putter, that'd be a penalty because its movement wasn't part of the marking process. Right?

Yes.

[Ferguson]

You were wrong.  No penalty in this case.  Tapping down the marker is considered as part of the act of marking.

Respectfully, you were not there - so I will explain. The marker was set down, and he picked up his ball and put it in his pocket. He then walked away. While I was looking at my line, he walked over to his marker that was somewhat in my line and tapped down his marker, which subsequently on the last tap stuck to the bottom of his putter. Penalty incurred.

[Rulesman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Quote:

Respectfully, you were not there - so I will explain. The marker was set down, and he picked up his ball and put it in his pocket. He then walked away. While I was looking at my line, he walked over to his marker that was somewhat in my line and tapped down his marker, which subsequently on the last tap stuck to the bottom of his putter.
Penalty incurred.

You didn't say that in the OP. The information that he had marked the ball earlier was crucial. Given that the thread is about the ball or marker being moved during the lifting or marking process, its absence didn't help.

[ColinL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You were wrong.  No penalty in this case.  Tapping down the marker is considered as part of the act of marking.

Respectfully, you were not there - so I will explain. The marker was set down, and he picked up his ball and put it in his pocket. He then walked away. While I was looking at my line, he walked over to his marker that was somewhat in my line and tapped down his marker, which subsequently on the last tap stuck to the bottom of his putter.

Penalty incurred.

No penalty.  Tapping down the marker is considered to be a continuation  of the process of marking even if it is done later.