Penalty for Giving Advice After a Round is Complete

[iacas]

To be perfectly blunt, the kid shared some responsibility in knowing the Rules of Golf as well.

Everything everyone's said the kid's coach could have done, he could have done too. He could have proven it by digging out his copy of the Rules of Golf. He could have stood up for himself. He could have insisted that he not be DQed or have strokes added to his card.

[David in FL]

To be perfectly blunt, the kid shared some responsibility in knowing the Rules of Golf as well. Everything everyone's said the kid's coach could have done, he could have done too. He could have proven it by digging out his copy of the Rules of Golf. He could have stood up for himself. He could have insisted that he not be DQed or have strokes added to his card.

It sounds as if he fought it as vehemently as he could until the coaches (committee) ruled. Agree though, he should have had the rules available and proven them wrong. Big lesson learned, I hope.

[iacas]

It sounds as if he fought it as vehemently as he could until the coaches (committee) ruled.

"Fervent objections" aren't the same as "Here's why you're wrong" and showing them in the Rules of Golf.

My daughter "fervently objects" to lots of things… bedtimes, clothing/dress standards, meal/snack requirements, etc. from time to time. Doesn't mean she makes her case very well (or at all). :)

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

It sounds as if he fought it as vehemently as he could until the coaches (committee) ruled.

"Fervent objections" aren't the same as "Here's why you're wrong" and showing them in the Rules of Golf.

My daughter "fervently objects" to lots of things… bedtimes, clothing/dress standards, meal/snack requirements, etc. from time to time. Doesn't mean she makes her case very well (or at all). :)

No Dad!  You go to YOUR room!

Agree, but opposing coaches can be very intimidating to a young player and even inexperienced coaches.

Similar example:

We ran into this in High School when the opposing coach made us only wear our shorts and sleeveless tank for a cross country race on a 25F day in November.  He stated some supposed rule about undershirts and gloves, etc. with authority and our coach did not challenge.  We froze ourselves and they won.  Turns out he was full of BS.  We found out later and then destroyed them in the spring in track.

[socalsharky]

"Fervent objections" aren't the same as "Here's why you're wrong" and showing them in the Rules of Golf.

My daughter "fervently objects" to lots of things… bedtimes, clothing/dress standards, meal/snack requirements, etc. from time to time. Doesn't mean she makes her case very well (or at all). :)

To be perfectly blunt, the kid shared some responsibility in knowing the Rules of Golf as well.

Everything everyone's said the kid's coach could have done, he could have done too. He could have proven it by digging out his copy of the Rules of Golf. He could have stood up for himself. He could have insisted that he not be DQed or have strokes added to his card.

I agree with your second statement, and my son and I have had a detailed discussion about how to handle this in the future.  He will have a copy of the Rules of Golf in his bag, and know how to use it!  However, I think you are not appreciating the situation that these kids are in.  They are taught to respect authority, and my son certainly does that.  He was intimidated by the opposing coach who bullied our coach, and the players involved, in order to get his way.  This is a school event, which is completely different from a youth golf tournament like the SCPGA Jr. Tour.  Anything that is perceived as disrespectful (whether it is or not) affects future standing with the team, and potentially at school.  So when in doubt, the kids defer to the adults.

[iacas]

However, I think you are not appreciating the situation that these kids are in. They are taught to respect authority, and my son certainly does that.

I disagree. I played high school golf. Rather well, in fact… I also coached high school golf. Part of making my golf team was passing a basic rules test, and each player was given a copy of the Rules, and the importance of which was stressed.

You can respect authority but stand up for yourself and what's literally "the right thing" all the same. "Respecting authority" does not mean taking whatever bullshit an adult sends your way. You can respectfully say "you're wrong and here is why."

So when in doubt, the kids defer to the adults.

Again, sorry to be blunt, because I know the pressures of the situation, but… he didn't need to be in doubt.

Yeah, I was a bit more of a prick as a kid, which meant I'd be far more likely to stand up for myself than the meeker children. I'm simply encouraging you to encourage him to know and understand the Rules of Golf and then to stand up for himself and those same Rules of Golf. Most high school coaches are van drivers… they can't be counted on to know the Rules of Golf. Many barely or don't play.

The responsibility is always on the player in the game of golf.

---

Again, to be clear, I don't think your son is a bad kid, or even anything approaching that. I'm just saying that if he had a little more knowledge of the Rules of Golf, and was socially aware enough to put forth what was right, he could still be respectful and achieve a better (correct) outcome.

My daughter is 12 and she's already had to pick and choose some of these battles with cheating in golf at her level. It's tough, and nuanced, but generally, she does the right thing and stands up for the Rules of Golf. They say golf teaches us how to behave, and this is one of those situations: you know what's right, and you might disagree with someone, and they might even be angry about being shown up, but that reveals more about them than it does about you.

[Golfingdad]

You can respect authority but stand up for yourself and what's literally "the right thing" all the same. "Respecting authority" does not mean taking whatever bullshit an adult sends your way. You can respectfully say "you're wrong and here is why."

You were a teenager a lot more recently than I was but I remember it well enough to remember that the above is waaaaaay easier said than done for a lot of people.

[iacas]

You were a teenager a lot more recently than I was but I remember it well enough to remember that the above is waaaaaay easier said than done for a lot of people.

It is. For a lot of people.

My point is that you can learn to stand up for yourself, particularly when you're right about it and it's not just a matter of opinion. The boy may have been a victim, but he was "willingly" to a large extent.

They're just golf coaches. And what's more, so what if you piss off the other team's golf coach. Yours should have your back, especially if you're right and are respectful in showing it.

[dkolo]

You were a teenager a lot more recently than I was but I remember it well enough to remember that the above is waaaaaay easier said than done for a lot of people.

I'm with you on this. Having a (much younger) kid sister going through high school golf now, I can tell you they don't take very kindly to input from the kids. It's sad. I was a pain in the ass for adults when I was in school, but but if you come across the wrong kind of adult with a power trip, you're boned.

[iacas]

I'm with you on this. Having a (much younger) kid sister going through high school golf now, I can tell you they don't take very kindly to input from the kids. It's sad. I was a pain in the ass for adults when I was in school, but but if you come across the wrong kind of adult with a power trip, you're boned.

It was the other coach the kid risked offending. Not even his own team's coach.

I wasn't there. I get that.

But children can be respectful without being pushovers for fear of… what, exactly?

[Golfingdad]

Yours should have your back, especially if you're right and are respectful in showing it.

I agree with this.  The kid could have gone to his coach, and hopefully his coach trusted that he knew the rules well enough that HE wouldn't be a pushover with the other coach.

But children can be respectful without being pushovers for fear of… what, exactly?

Are you asking me to rationalize what kids can be afraid of??  They're kids, they're not rational.  When I was in high school, I flunked a couple of assignments because they required standing up in front of the class and speaking for a few minutes.  My fear was something along the lines of "I'm going to say something stupid and they're all going to laugh at me and I won't have any friends afterwards."  I preferred purposely flunking those assignments than risk that.

[dkolo]

It was the other coach the kid risked offending. Not even his own team's coach.

I wasn't there. I get that.

But children can be respectful without being pushovers for fear of… what, exactly?

I think that it being the other team's coach makes it even tougher. This kid's own coach folded in the face of this guy being an overbearing jerk, I can't fault the kid for doing the same, especially without his own coach's backing. When you're a kid, you don't know what consequences you might actually face from authority. Being an adult with more understanding of the mechanics of how these things work and knowing how many apparent authority figures don't know much at all, it's easier to be more forceful and proactive.

[socalsharky]

OK, let me make it real clear for all of you that do not understand the dynamics of this situation.  My son's golf coach is a big puss.  Anytime there is conflict, he defers to the bully.  He does not stand up for his players.  There is nothing that the players can do to change that.  If my son where to say something that offended the other coach, my son's coach could very well take that as being disrespectful.  This would likely affect his status on the team, and future playing time.  My son is much less of a "prick" than some of you may have been during your HS years.  The DQ did not affect the results of the match; my son's team won anyway.  As mentioned above, sometimes you have to pick your battles.

As I stated above, my son and I have had a detailed discussion about how to handle this respectfully in the future.  He will be handing a copy of the Rules of Golf to anyone who wishes to assess a penalty, and asking them to show him the applicable rule that was violated.  I am sending a polite email to the coaching staff alerting them of the incorrect ruling, so hopefully the coach will have the guts to stand up for his team in the future.

This thread has strayed far from the original topic, which was to get input on the correct ruling.  Thanks for all the input.

[iacas]

I think that it being the other team's coach makes it even tougher. This kid's own coach folded in the face of this guy being an overbearing jerk, I can't fault the kid for doing the same, especially without his own coach's backing. When you're a kid, you don't know what consequences you might actually face from authority. Being an adult with more understanding of the mechanics of how these things work and knowing how many apparent authority figures don't know much at all, it's easier to be more forceful and proactive.

I disagree. Because the coach wilts in the face of someone being so brash as to disagree and/or insist on something, the kid has to too? C'mon. The coach is probably a van driver. The golfer is responsible for knowing the Rules of Golf.

Kids aren't completely unaware. They're sentient beings, you know.

Are you asking me to rationalize what kids can be afraid of?? They're kids, they're not rational.

Oh spare me Drew. Kids can be rational, especially in high school. That you were afraid of semi-public speaking may have been dumb or something, but it's not irrational.

At the end of the day the kid let his fears, concerns, lack of knowledge with the Rules of Golf, etc. result in a "bad thing" happening, unnecessarily, to him. I'd have handled it very differently myself, but that starts with the fact that I'd know the Rules, have a copy of the book in my bag, etc.

That this is the outcome going forward (hi @Shorty ) is a win and a lesson learned.

[Golfingdad]

Oh spare me Drew. Kids can be rational, especially in high school. That you were afraid of semi-public speaking may have been dumb or something, but it's not irrational.

At the end of the day the kid let his fears, concerns, lack of knowledge with the Rules of Golf, etc. result in a "bad thing" happening, unnecessarily, to him. I'd have handled it very differently myself, but that starts with the fact that I'd know the Rules, have a copy of the book in my bag, etc.

That this is the outcome going forward (hi @Shorty) is a win and a lesson learned.

Whatever, then I'll rephrase ... " Are you asking me to rationalize explain what kids can be afraid of?? They're kids, they're not rational always smart."  Regardless, the sentiment is the same.  You say you would have handled it differently.  I believe you.  I probably would not have and can completely sympathize with the kid and his dad in that situation.

Either way, we all agree (pretty sure) that in the long run, something like this can turn out very good for this kid with the lesson(s) he's learning.  That's what high school sports is about anyway - learning, not winning. :)

[boogielicious]

OK, let me make it real clear for all of you that do not understand the dynamics of this situation.  My son's golf coach is a big puss.  Anytime there is conflict, he defers to the bully.  He does not stand up for his players.  There is nothing that the players can do to change that.  If my son where to say something that offended the other coach, my son's coach could very well take that as being disrespectful.  This would likely affect his status on the team, and future playing time.  My son is much less of a "prick" than some of you may have been during your HS years.  The DQ did not affect the results of the match; my son's team won anyway.  As mentioned above, sometimes you have to pick your battles.

As I stated above, my son and I have had a detailed discussion about how to handle this respectfully in the future.  He will be handing a copy of the Rules of Golf to anyone who wishes to assess a penalty, and asking them to show him the applicable rule that was violated.  I am sending a polite email to the coaching staff alerting them of the incorrect ruling, so hopefully the coach will have the guts to stand up for his team in the future.

This thread has strayed far from the original topic, which was to get input on the correct ruling.  Thanks for all the input.

Good idea carrying the rules and making the opponent point out the rule.  That is the best way to resolve conflict.

[iacas]

Whatever, then I'll rephrase ... "Are you asking me to rationalize explain what kids can be afraid of?? They're kids, they're not rational always smart."

So? He wasn't necessarily "smart" in this case. That's all I'm saying. Live and learn. I'm glad you agree.

Regardless, the sentiment is the same.  You say you would have handled it differently.  I believe you.  I probably would not have and can completely sympathize with the kid and his dad in that situation.

I can sympathize too, and still think the kid could have handled it better.

So what are you saying again?

Good idea carrying the rules and making the opponent point out the rule.  That is the best way to resolve conflict.

That's all I've suggested. It would've let the kid stand up for himself and what was, again, actually right . The Rules in this case aren't really a matter of opinion.

[dkolo]

I disagree. Because the coach wilts in the face of someone being so brash as to disagree and/or insist on something, the kid has to too? C'mon. The coach is probably a van driver. The golfer is responsible for knowing the Rules of Golf.

Kids aren't completely unaware. They're sentient beings, you know.

Oh spare me Drew. Kids can be rational, especially in high school. That you were afraid of semi-public speaking may have been dumb or something, but it's not irrational.

At the end of the day the kid let his fears, concerns, lack of knowledge with the Rules of Golf, etc. result in a "bad thing" happening, unnecessarily, to him. I'd have handled it very differently myself, but that starts with the fact that I'd know the Rules, have a copy of the book in my bag, etc.

That this is the outcome going forward (hi @Shorty) is a win and a lesson learned.

Kids take cues from their teachers. My kid sister's high school golf team isn't run as stringently as a better program might be. The tournaments all use Par-Plus scoring and from what I understand, cheating is rampant, both from malice and ignorance. I've followed her golf career closely, and I know the extent of the rules education they've gotten has been a one sheet website printout of "key rules." She was a freshman and was the most knowledgeable person on her team as far as rules go because I saw to it, but it goes top-down. If they're not being shown the right way, they're unlikely to pick it up. Their coaches have a responsibility to teach them. I'd put that on the other coach, too. I don't know if he was just dead sure he was right or was just trying to be the squeaky wheel to get his team a win, but if the authority figures don't know the rules well, I don't know that how they're teaching their kids to put effort and value into learning them. Basically, if the kid comes into the high school golf program not having ever swung a club or having family that played golf, where are they getting their cues from? It has to come from the coaches. I view this as a failure on their part.

So as to your premise that the golfer is ultimately responsible for the rules of golf, I totally agree. But that's a mindset that the coaches have to get the kids into and I think it's vital that the coaches know the rules better than their students, both for actually teaching them and as an example.