To catch a sandbagger....

[saevel25]

There was a fairly lengthy discussion elsewhere about "style of play" employed in casual rounds versus tournaments.  A player stated that when he was playing a non-tournament round he always went for the low percentage but spectacular shot.  He would rarely warm up and often just arrived 5 minutes prior to teeing off.  When a tournament was at hand, he would play a practice round at the course.  On tournament day he would arrive early and thoroughly warm up.  Once on the course, he would play conservatively and go with high percentage shots.  As a result of his "style" of play, his tournament results were considerably better than his non-tournament rounds.  This would be one explanation.

Might take the side that any round he plays with that ultra aggressive style should not count towards his handicap. If he does submit it, then it might be up to his playing partners and/or the handicap committee to review his play and maybe deem those rounds non-countable due to an obvious change in play that would make the handicap inaccurate.

Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review. The player and the player's Handicap Committee have joint responsibility for adhering to these premises.

Another approach is where a player plays courses from the tips when his game is better suited to the "White" tees.  I am personally convinced that slope/rating works best when a player plays a tee appropriate for their game.  A 10.0 index player who hits his drives 200-210 yards and plays Bethpage Black from the tips is likely to never come close to beating their handicap.  If one plays courses that are beyond one's skill level, the resulting index will be inflated (again, just my opinion - no facts to back it up).

I think it depends on the course.

[DaveP043]

Does he enter tournaments? Does he score with the lower differential in his tournaments? If so the USGA can reduce his handicap and slap a "R" after it.

Yeah the 2012 gap jumped out at me, but the first thing that raised an eyebrow was that not once in 5 years was the club avg differential the higher number... The closest is this year with a gap of 2.6.  I don't want to be subtle about either... he's winning money at least 1/2 of the rounds he plays with us... to me that sandbagging turns into stealing.

I'm with Julia, the first thing I'd check is whether he's posting his tournament rounds properly.  If those rounds are low enough compared to his handicap, they'll trigger an automatic reduction.  If they're not posted as T scores, your handicap committee can rectify that, without even telling him.  If those T scores cause a reduction, the Handicap Committee can choose to let the reduction stand, OR increase the reduction, OR decrease the reduction, as it sees fit.  In addition, the Handicap Committee is specifically authorized to adjust his handicap if too many "away" scores cause his handicap to be too high.  From 8-4.c of the Handicap Manual:

(ii) Numerous Away or Internet Scores Change Index
If a player's Handicap Index increases by 3.0 or more strokes due to the posting of numerous away or Internet scores, and subsequent scores at the player's club clearly indicate that the increased Handicap Index is too high, the Handicap Committee must adjust the player's Handicap Index downward.

Based on what you've posted, I think there's valid reason to examine his records further.

[rkim291968]

By purposely not playing for your best score on an outside round, aren't you inflating your handicap?

If someone is being open and honest about not trying to card their best score, then they shouldn't be posting that score.

To me, that's no different than purposely missing putts after a match is over to inflate your score.

Now, I understand it may be more fun for some to play like a riverboat gambler... But if the result is you blow up your round, i don't think you should be posting it.

Correct.  Anyway I see it, he is very suspicious.   Whatever the reasons (being narcissistic, psychopathic, egotistic) he has, it looks and feels like he's hustling the fellow club members.   I still can't get over the 7 stroke difference between a large set of outside club scores and home course ones.

[Lihu]

Hello everybody... brand new here... I play in a local club and of course we think we have a problem with people inflating their handicap indices with rounds outside the club.

The person in question over the last 5 years has played 208 rounds outside the club with an average differential of 17.7.  He has 35 rounds within the club with an average differential of 12.5.

The break down year by year is:

2011 (22 outside rounds, avg diff 18.1 vs. 6 club rounds, avg diff 12.0)

2012 (34 outside rounds, avg diff 21.2 vs. 5 club rounds, avg. diff 14.0)

2013 (61 outside rounds, avg diff 17.3 vs 7 club rounds, avg diff 13.7)

2014 (52 outside rounds, avg diff 17.6 vs 11 club rounds avg diff 11.1)

2015 (39 outside rounds, avg diff 15.4 vs 5 club rounds avg diff 12.8)

I guess my question is this:

Is there any other logical or plausible explanation other than sandbagging?

He's improving.

Except for the 2011 12.0 diff in the club data point, everything else more or less shows improvement.

[MEfree]

He's improving. Except for the 2011 12.0 diff in the club data point, everything else more or less shows improvement.

And his current gap is less than in previous years...maybe is is becoming more familiar with some of the away courses he plays regularly and is starting to post better scores at those courses. IMO, a very low % of golfers are able to go out to a new course and shoot to their handicap. Another factor can be willingness to play in unfavorable conditions. i.e. My highest recent differential was when I chose to play in huge winds. Ended up going out as a twosome because the other two players chose not to play after showing up at the course and seeing how windy it was. I didn't think I played that bad, but my differential was more than triple my index. Am I a sandbagger for turning in that score when others chose not to play? While you could say this is a one off occurrence, I'd say there are certain areas of the world where courses typically play 2-4+ shots harder in the afternoon rather than morning. If this guy consistently plays away courses in the afternoon/less favorable conditions while playing mostly in the morning/more favorable conditions at home, it could factor in to what you are seeing.

[pops4wood]

Thanks for all the input.

[MEfree]

Yesterday, I crushed a 15.8 index friend who has a 2nd home near me where he keeps an old set of clubs. It was his first time out on the 69.8/130 course and he shot 105 adjusted. This is the 3rd time I have played a new (for him) course and 2 out of 3 rounds have been well above his index using his old set of clubs which he complains about when he is not playing well. Should he post those scores? If he does, it will certainly inflate his "away index"

[PingDB]

I'm with Julia, the first thing I'd check is whether he's posting his tournament rounds properly.  If those rounds are low enough compared to his handicap, they'll trigger an automatic reduction.  If they're not posted as T scores, your handicap committee can rectify that, without even telling him.  If those T scores cause a reduction, the Handicap Committee can choose to let the reduction stand, OR increase the reduction, OR decrease the reduction, as it sees fit.  In addition, the Handicap Committee is specifically authorized to adjust his handicap if too many "away" scores cause his handicap to be too high.  From 8-4.c of the Handicap Manual:

(ii) Numerous Away or Internet Scores Change Index

If a player's Handicap Index increases by 3.0 or more strokes due to the posting of numerous away or Internet scores, and subsequent scores at the player's club clearly indicate that the increased Handicap Index is too high, the Handicap Committee must adjust the player's Handicap Index downward.

Based on what you've posted, I think there's valid reason to examine his records further.

This about nails it!

Also, I think we should consider having the name of this thread change and have it added to the instructional themed threads "how to effectively sandbag, and what to look out for so you don't get caught"

[rkim291968]

Yesterday, I crushed a 15.8 index friend who has a 2nd home near me where he keeps an old set of clubs. It was his first time out on the 69.8/130 course and he shot 105 adjusted. This is the 3rd time I have played a new (for him) course and 2 out of 3 rounds have been well above his index using his old set of clubs which he complains about when he is not playing well. Should he post those scores? If he does, it will certainly inflate his "away index"

The OP's golfer played, in one season, over 60 rounds outside and just a handful at the club (which has 3 courses as I recall).   Nobody plays a brand new unfamiliar course 60  different times in a season unless he is a traveling salesman.    Many of those "outside" plays, I assume, are from same set of courses.

[PingDB]

Your argument may be correct if he plays home course most of the times, and plays outside his club occasionally,   But the guy in question plays outside of his home course a lot more than his club course.   Playing that many rounds, likely, he's not playing a new course every time and has a set of outside courses he frequent.   In fact he plays his club course rather infrequently.

7 stroke difference given the above playing pattern is not plausible.   Over time, CR is supposed to return similar HI no matter where you play.

Maybe, but OP stated clearly "he plays a ton of different courses"

[bubble]

is there any interest in paying 208 round or whatever playing then not playing well on home course ?

Personally I often play better out as I dont have all the tramas of home holes in my mind and not knowing the course I'm extra careful with a more efficient stroke play game.

[MEfree]

I agree that Dave nailed this situation [quote name="saevel25" url="/t/83143/to-catch-a-sandbagger/18#post_1166909"] Might take the side that any round he plays with that ultra aggressive style should not count towards his handicap. Quote: Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review. The player and the player's Handicap Committee have joint responsibility for adhering to these premises. [/quote] Does "best score" mean lowest score possible, lowest average score or lowest average adjusted score? Most of my best scores (eagles) are when I go for the green in under regulation (even if this might not have been the "smart" play). [quote name="rkim291968" url="/t/83143/to-catch-a-sandbagger/18#post_1166947"] The OP's golfer played, in one season, over 60 rounds outside and just a handful at the club (which has 3 courses as I recall).   Nobody plays a brand new unfamiliar course 60  different times in a season unless he is a traveling salesman.    Many of those "outside" plays, I assume, are from same set of courses.   [/quote] The guy in question may or may not be a sandbagger- the OP asked for any possible explanation. Even if only 20% of his away rounds were at new courses where he shot significantly above his index, this would inflate his "away index"

[MEfree]

is there any interest in paying 208 round or whatever playing then not playing well on home course ? Personally I often play better out as I dont have all the tramas of home holes in my mind and not knowing the course I'm extra careful with a more efficient stroke play game.

I feel the same way myself, but know plenty of golfers who do not play well away from their home track. Having a range finder has made playing new tracks easier for me. OP- Does the guy in question have a range finder?

[Grumpter]

I was curious so I looked up my last 20 rounds. In 6 rounds at the 1 course I played most often my differential was 8.21, in 6 rounds at courses I don't play that often my differential is 12.02. The other 8 rounds are mostly combinations of courses I play 9 hole leagues in or play 9 holes in the morning before work. Those 8 average 8.71 differential.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Your argument may be correct if he plays home course most of the times, and plays outside his club occasionally,   But the guy in question plays outside of his home course a lot more than his club course.   Playing that many rounds, likely, he's not playing a new course every time and has a set of outside courses he frequent.   In fact he plays his club course rather infrequently.

7 stroke difference given the above playing pattern is not plausible.   Over time, CR is supposed to return similar HI no matter where you play.

Maybe, but OP stated clearly "he plays a ton of different courses"

Over the 5 years, he played about 200 times outside, many of them are probably repeats of the same set of courses.   And CR should be the neutralizer unless his outside courses are all mis-rated as tougher than they should.    I think it is plausible if you give the OP's guy the benefit of doubt.   I just don't see it though.

[Jon Hoover]

By purposely not playing for your best score on an outside round, aren't you inflating your handicap?

If someone is being open and honest about not trying to card their best score, then they shouldn't be posting that score.

To me, that's no different than purposely missing putts after a match is over to inflate your score.

Now, I understand it may be more fun for some to play like a riverboat gambler... But if the result is you blow up your round, i don't think you should be posting it.

Now I won't say he is not sandbagging, but I don't think its fair to say just because if he were to play differently its like missing putts purposely. When I play with money on the line obviously I play more conservative who doesn't, instead of trying to shape big drives i'll take irons on par 4s and what not, hitting balls OB or in hazards can easily add up quick. Now if he is purposely missing shot that's one thing, but you can't say he is cheating just because when he is not playing in a tournament he goes for lower percentage shots. He might not be trying to card a worse score he might just play differently when theirs no money on the line. His numbers do look suspicious though.

[mcanadiens]

It doesn't look good, but there might be some odd circumstances that cause it.

Maybe it's a proper and fair thing to adjust a handicap when these kind of things come up without necessarily calling a person out as a sandbagger. Take the man aside, point out the discrepancy and if he's a stand-up sort of person, he'll probably agree to the adjustment.

[DrvFrShow]

What I think is going on is that his outside rounds are on easier courses and he's not playing any better on them. He may be playing on a tougher course, but teeing forward to a lower rated tee. Then he plays on your course which is rated tougher, but in reality isn't that much tougher than the lower rated tee at the courses he's been playing, and so he scores about the same, but because of your course rating gets a lower differential.

The system can be manipulated. It is very difficult to prove that its being manipulated.

Why can I break 90 on a 72.1/121 rated course but can't shoot below 97 on my home course that's rated 69.1/113? Am I sandbagging? No, it's the layout of the course, and the fact that I'm usually playing with better golfers.

By purposely not playing for your best score on an outside round, aren't you inflating your handicap?

If someone is being open and honest about not trying to card their best score, then they shouldn't be posting that score.

To me, that's no different than purposely missing putts after a match is over to inflate your score.

Now, I understand it may be more fun for some to play like a riverboat gambler... But if the result is you blow up your round, i don't think you should be posting it.

Your first question here is interesting - should we post all of our rounds or only our league and tournament rounds? for example I play very aggressive in my outside rounds and a lot of the time pay for it dearly in the score. Sometimes it pays off. Yet in tournament play I don't play like that. I bring my A game. But the USGA wants us to post all of our rounds. Does the USGA not want us to experiment? No. But they want us to post our failures.

Wrong. The USGA wants us to post every single score, even when we're experimenting for handicap purposes. If you're having a not so great round, and decide to have some fun and try to cut the dogleg with that 220 yd forced carry that you normally don't ever do and don't make it, take S&D;, and play the hole normally, you end up probably with a double bogey. Are you saying you're not ever supposed to try stuff like that? I know guys who don't keep a handicap who play like that when there's no money on the line, but when they're playing for money, they're playing their A game. The only time we're not supposed to post is when we're not following the rules of golf.

I also have to say that the peer review system here in the states is pure BS. No one checks and everyone's score is rubber stamped unless their tournament scores are significantly lower. There are several women in my Ladies Club who have "R" after their handicaps because they play in outside tournaments frequently and score quite lower than they do normally. My home course is weird. They'll come here and shoot 98, yes, 69.1/113, then go to a 73/127 rated course and shoot an 86 in a tournament. I've come to the conclusion that my home course is deceptively hard.