What Climate Wars Did To Science

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

For the record I don't believe it's a hoax which is why I called @Gunther out on it, but it's not as "scientific" as they would like us to believe.  Like anything that is based off of statistics, you can create models that support or don't support a hypothesis.  

In a way creating a model is creating an experiment to try to replicate a result. 

We've put more money and time into creating weather models and it's still not overly accurate. The models can change daily. 

I think this situation is much more created by the median and politics over some great global scientific conspiracy that some radical blogger wants us to believe. 

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In a way creating a model is creating an experiment to try to replicate a result. 

We've put more money and time into creating weather models and it's still not overly accurate. The models can change daily. 

I think this situation is much more created by the median and politics over some great global scientific conspiracy that some radical blogger wants us to believe. 

I agree but in the case of the climate, the data sample is too small to make long term projections.  

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I agree but in the case of the climate, the data sample is too small to make long term projections.  

So science can do amazing things like detect the Higgs Boson and find gravitational waves from the Big Bang, but we can't make long-term predictions about the climate based on measurements we've taken over a hundred years, with data from thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago too?

To me it's very simple: greenhouse gases are being produced at high levels, and they have known effects. And we're seeing those effects, and thousands of scientists, many of whom are not under the auspices of the U.S. government, are in widespread agreement.

Beyond that, the "anti-Climate Change" folks always strike me as conspiracy theorist crazies, so this is where I check out.

[Gunther]

Team, it's a hoax, in fact, that makes it a little more comical than what it is, it's fraud.  What don't you understand about the data everyone is using being false, altered, faked?  That is irrefutable.  Why were the alarmists warning of an ice age in the 70s?  Data was there.  It's now gone. 

Look, I'm skeptical of our government, they've been caught lying enough for me to realize that is what it does.  Some of you are naive, useful protagonists, to put it politely.  You are being duped.  And as I have said, many are beginning to realize it, and they're publishing peer-reviewed papers to counter this particular lie.  This will be exposed as a huge fraud in my lifetime, I have no doubt of it.

Someone on this thread said it earlier, is the climate changing?  Well hell yes, of course, it's in a state of flux always due to the earth's cycles.  But there is no data available that can prove it's man-made.  That is the fraud that is being perpetrated on the willing minds and good intentioned people of this world.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Gunther

[iacas]

[Gunther]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

I understand your frustration.  It's tough to reconcile for you, I get it.

[Hardspoon]

30 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Team, it's a hoax, in fact, that makes it a little more comical than what it is, it's fraud.  What don't you understand about the data everyone is using being false, altered, faked?  That is irrefutable.  Why were the alarmists warning of an ice age in the 70s?  Data was there.  It's now gone. 

Look, I'm skeptical of our government, they've been caught lying enough for me to realize that is what it does.  Some of you are naive, useful protagonists, to put it politely.  You are being duped.  And as I have said, many are beginning to realize it, and they're publishing peer-reviewed papers to counter this particular lie.  This will be exposed as a huge fraud in my lifetime, I have no doubt of it.

Someone on this thread said it earlier, is the climate changing?  Well hell yes, of course, it's in a state of flux always due to the earth's cycles.  But there is no data available that can prove it's man-made.  That is the fraud that is being perpetrated on the willing minds and good intentioned people of this world.

Your conspiracy theory would literally be the most complex and vast fraud in the history of scientific knowledge, and yet there is absolutely no factual evidence of it.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Hardspoon
Less snark

[saevel25]

30 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Team, it's a hoax, in fact, that makes it a little more comical than what it is, it's fraud.  What don't you understand about the data everyone is using being false, altered, faked?  

Prove it

32 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Why were the alarmists warning of an ice age in the 70s?  Data was there.  It's now gone. 

Prove it's gone! 

As for your 1970's remark.  It's a myth. It's misconstrued information. Basically it is a massive spin job to push the anti-climate change agenda. 

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/06/04/the-1970s-ice-age-myth-and-time-magazine-covers-by-david-kirtley/

Quote

This, in a very brief nutshell, was the state of climate science in the 1970s. And so the media of the time published many stories about a coming ice age, which made for timely reading during some very cold winters. But many news stories also mentioned that other important detail about CO2: that our climate might soon change due to global warming. In 1976 Time published “The World’s Climate: Unpredictable” which is a very good summary of the then current scientific thinking: some scientists emphasized aerosols and cooling, some scientists emphasized CO2 and warming. There was no consensus either way. Many other 1970s articles which mention a Coming Ice Age also mention the possibility of increased warming due to CO2. For instance,here, here and here.

Your assertion that the 1970's had many scientists claiming a upcoming ice age is false. There wasn't a consensus on what the climate was going to do.  No one knew at the time what was going to happen because they were just really starting to study global temperatures and what influences them.  

 

 

[Gunther]

10 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Your conspiracy theory would literally be the most complex and vast fraud in the history of scientific knowledge, and yet there is absolutely no factual evidence of it.

Yes, there is lots of evidence,  but you don't hear of them in your mainstream news feeds.  I've posted a great article on this thread relative to the what the data really projects.  And, earlier this morning I posted a YouTube video of a respected data analyst providing irrefutable proof that our US government has altered data to suit their narrative.  I recognize this is against current orthodoxy and I'm OK with folks posting dohs or tin foil hats or whatever.  I'm no dummy, I am, much like Steve Goddard, a fact finder.  In my career that's been through data, which mirrors his, although he's had much higher level positions than me.  

I'm OK with the jabs, I do believe this entire menagerie is coming to a quick close.  A few colleges have weighed in, won't be long.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

I understand your frustration.  It's tough to reconcile for you, I get it.

Add that to the list of bullshit you're spewing here… C'mon @Gunther. You're being ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Hardspoon said:

Your conspiracy theory would literally be the most complex and vast fraud in the history of scientific knowledge, and yet there is absolutely no factual evidence of it.

Yup.

And though I'm not a big fan of the same type of thinking that "I'd rather believe in God and be wrong than not believe and be wrong," a little of that applies here, too: you can't tell me that we could or should do a better job of not putting greenhouse gases in the air, of having less of an impact on our environment, and of doing more to take care of the earth, use replenishable resources, etc.

---

Oh, and if you blocked yourself, cool. Please honor that.

[Ernest Jones]

4 hours ago, Gunther said:

Team, it's a hoax, in fact, that makes it a little more comical than what it is, it's fraud.  What don't you understand about the data everyone is using being false, altered, faked?  That is irrefutable.  Why were the alarmists warning of an ice age in the 70s?  Data was there.  It's now gone. 

Look, I'm skeptical of our government, they've been caught lying enough for me to realize that is what it does.  Some of you are naive, useful protagonists, to put it politely.  You are being duped.  And as I have said, many are beginning to realize it, and they're publishing peer-reviewed papers to counter this particular lie.  This will be exposed as a huge fraud in my lifetime, I have no doubt of it.

Someone on this thread said it earlier, is the climate changing?  Well hell yes, of course, it's in a state of flux always due to the earth's cycles.  But there is no data available that can prove it's man-made.  That is the fraud that is being perpetrated on the willing minds and good intentioned people of this world.

Freakin' wowsers!!! I always suspected you were a tad "unbalanced", but Holy effin' Canoli, I had no idea you were full on, bat shit crazy!

[boogielicious]

News Flash: Goddard says this is a beautiful clear sunny day in Beijing. The haze you see is really a fraud put on by the Gub'ment to push liberal agenda. You people who think it is smog are being duped! Open your eyes! You will see the sunny blue sky!

[GolfLug]

39 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

News Flash: Goddard says this is a beautiful clear sunny day in Beijing. The haze you see is really a fraud put on by the Gub'ment to push liberal agenda. You people who think it is smog are being duped! Open your eyes! You will see the sunny blue sky!

#greyfilter ...LOL!

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 you can't tell me that we could or should do a better job of not putting greenhouse gases in the air, of having less of an impact on our environment, and of doing more to take care of the earth, use replenishable resources, etc.

This is where I come down on this one.  I'm not convinced that the computer projections are accurate, mostly because there's so much that's not known or quantifiable.about weather and climate.  But no matter whether humanity causing catastrophic climate change or not, there's no reason we shouldn't do everything in our power to decrease the amount of crap we humans eject into the atmosphere.  

I see society in a difficult spot.  We're addicted to energy-using devices, I'm typing on one right now, and I drove to work in another one.  But pretty much every energy-producing system has its detractors.  Some produce greenhouse gas emissions or other airborne pollutants.  Nuclear energy is reviled by many for thermal pollution of waterways, for issues with spent fuel, for the serious consequences of containment failures.  Wind turbines are ugly, and kill birds.  Solar power has its own issues.  I know I'm missing many of the systems, and many of the problems, but the big picture is that we want and need energy, but don't want the negatives that come with producing energy.  So where do we go?

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is where I come down on this one.  I'm not convinced that the computer projections are accurate, mostly because there's so much that's not known or quantifiable.about weather and climate.  But no matter whether humanity causing catastrophic climate change or not, there's no reason we shouldn't do everything in our power to decrease the amount of crap we humans eject into the atmosphere.  

I see society in a difficult spot.  We're addicted to energy-using devices, I'm typing on one right now, and I drove to work in another one.  But pretty much every energy-producing system has its detractors.  Some produce greenhouse gas emissions or other airborne pollutants.  Nuclear energy is reviled by many for thermal pollution of waterways, for issues with spent fuel, for the serious consequences of containment failures.  Wind turbines are ugly, and kill birds.  Solar power has its own issues.  I know I'm missing many of the systems, and many of the problems, but the big picture is that we want and need energy, but don't want the negatives that come with producing energy.  So where do we go?

This is a great representation of how I feel.  I also agree that we should do our best to not fill the atmosphere with harmful gases that could have long term negative effects to the planet.  

We tend to think we're smarter than we are, especially when it comes to science.  We rush to find solutions to problems that only introduce new problems that need to be solved.  

The world's scientists seem to agree the planet is warming and the cause is fossil fuels, yet China and India continue to expand their use of coal burning power plants.  Are China and India misinformed, do they side with the conspiracy theorists that global warming is a hoax, or do they just not care about the planet?  Why aren't sanctions being placed against China and India?

As for other power sources I also agree, there aren't any good, practical alternatives.  

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Solar power has its own issues.  I know I'm missing many of the systems, and many of the problems, but the big picture is that we want and need energy, but don't want the negatives that come with producing energy.  So where do we go?

I think a lot of these are just that people need to get over what they are use to and accept that if everybody does their little part it saves a lot. 

This might be one of those issues where if people just don't care then the Government should step in. I know that might upset a lot of people. In the end the Government's job is to protect this nation. If energy independence is a way to protect the country then certain steps might have to be taken. 

One of the greatest acts that a president got passed was to protect our national forests and landmarks. 

1 minute ago, newtogolf said:

The world's scientists seem to agree the planet is warming and the cause is fossil fuels, yet China and India continue to expand their use of coal burning power plants.  Are China and India misinformed, do they side with the conspiracy theorists that global warming is a hoax, or do they just not care about the planet?  Why aren't sanctions being placed against China and India?

India doesn't care. The rich in India are making a killing off of letting corporations into their country and pay their employees way cheaper labor than we could in the US. Same with China. It takes a lot to strike a deal with the Chinese, but you still get access to a huge developing market and cheap labor as long as the Chinese government get's their kickbacks. 

It's not about being misinformed. It's about just not caring.

 

 

[baller7345]

7 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

 Are China and India misinformed, do they side with the conspiracy theorists that global warming is a hoax, or do they just not care about the planet?  Why aren't sanctions being placed against China and India?

I wouldn't say they don't care about the planet, just that they are blinded by their rapid modernization.  I know one argument China has used in the past is why should they be limited during this period in their history when no one limited the rest of the developed world as they developed (not that we knew exactly what massive industrialization did to the environment at the time).

As for sanctions not being leveled against China and India, it's probably due to their influence on the economy, or at least that would be my guess.  With the amount of manufacturing happening in those two countries what would the global effect of sanctions be on the global economy?

[GolfLug]

4 hours ago, newtogolf said:

This is a great representation of how I feel.  I also agree that we should do our best to not fill the atmosphere with harmful gases that could have long term negative effects to the planet.  

We tend to think we're smarter than we are, especially when it comes to science.  We rush to find solutions to problems that only introduce new problems that need to be solved.  

The world's scientists seem to agree the planet is warming and the cause is fossil fuels, yet China and India continue to expand their use of coal burning power plants.  Are China and India misinformed, do they side with the conspiracy theorists that global warming is a hoax, or do they just not care about the planet?  Why aren't sanctions being placed against China and India?

As for other power sources I also agree, there aren't any good, practical alternatives.  

..said the largest consumer of Chinese goods on the planet..  Takes two to tango, no? Industrialization is only as strong as the consumer.

BTW, add to that a list of 10 or so south east Asian, north African, south American, that are going ape shit in trying to catch up to the boom of the last 100 years in developed nations that they believe they missed out on.