Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[Duff McGee]

I'm not being combative or making fun of your family member here guys. I'm just expressing my opinion of fairness. If this is the way it has to be then PGA golfers should never be allowed to have people looking for their balls or use film to find their balls. So the rule basically favors professionals and people with money that can afford to pay a spotter. Why do you not have any problem with those things? Also I don't think you know what a straw man is....

[isukgolf]

I'm not being combative your making fun of your family member here guys. I'm just expressing my opinion of fairness. If this is the way it has to be then PGA golfers should never be allowed to have people looking for their balls or use film to find their balls. So the rule basically favors professionals and people with money that can afford to pay a spotter. Why do you not have any problem with those things?

How often are you losing balls? On a ball that you, nor anyone else has clue where it went the only fair option is to hit from the original spot? Some folks (me included) sometimes just don't like the number we have write on the score card when we hit a bad shot. (lord for give me for posting on a rules thread ... yes I know better):~(

[Duff McGee]

How often are you losing balls? On a ball that you, nor anyone else has clue where it went the only fair option is to hit from the original spot? Some folks (me included) sometimes just don't like the number we have write on the score card when we hit a bad shot. (lord for give me for posting on a rules thread ... yes I know better):~(

Obviously it is somewhat rare to not find a ball that was hit on or near the fairway, but it happens. I have caught people picking up my ball before over a hill or even right in front of my eyes. I have seen balls sink under the surface on tee shots. I have seen balls found 100 yards of where it should be because it just so happened to catch a cart path that no one thought it hit. All of these balls would always be found for pros. I've also seen a ton of balls land barely off of the fairway in thick rough that covers the ball and no one can find it. Or I'll be looking for my ball and find 5 others that people gave up on because they couldn't find it a mere foot off of the fairway.

[iacas]

I'm not being combative or making fun of your family member here guys. I'm just expressing my opinion of fairness.

If this is the way it has to be then PGA golfers should never be allowed to have people looking for their balls or use film to find their balls.

So the rule basically favors professionals and people with money that can afford to pay a spotter. Why do you not have any problem with those things?

How about this: watch your ball and see where it goes?

You can't legislate how many people watch where a ball goes. It's completely impractical.

[DrvFrShow]

I've had my ball hit the green (#5) and roll off the back of the green into tallish grass never to be seen again. We know damned well it's within about 10 feet of the green along a straight line due to the trajectory and speed the ball was traveling. But where did it go? It's gone. Walk back 170 yds and rehit with a penalty of stroke and distance because someone didn't run the lawn mower? So my score is BS if I drop a ball in the general area and hit it up onto the green from a crappy lie in that area?

There are also some other decisions like the one that doesn't consider poison oak dangerous. Yes it's in the woods. I say if the woods have poison oak in them, treat them like lateral hazards. +1 stroke at point of entry. I'm not going in there to even retrieve the ball. That ball is gone as far as I'm concerned.

I saw someone pick up my 205 yd 5 wood shot that was in perfect position and I was yelling at him when I saw him. So with my ball gone, I get to rehit that shot with a penalty of stroke and distance since it was league. I get penalized because some ******* stole my ball. In a casual round I'd drop up there because it's BS.

And sometimes I think it's fun just to go out and have a nice walk on the course and hit the ball around and not even keep score. If the game is going poorly, maybe that's what's best to do.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

I've had my ball hit the green (#5) and roll off the back of the green into tallish grass never to be seen again. We know damned well it's within about 10 feet of the green along a straight line due to the trajectory and speed the ball was traveling. But where did it go? It's gone. Walk back 170 yds and rehit with a penalty of stroke and distance because someone didn't run the lawn mower? So my score is BS if I drop a ball in the general area and hit it up onto the green from a crappy lie in that area?

Yup. Pay closer attention to where your ball goes, or realize that it's bad luck, and you sometimes get good luck, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

There are also some other decisions like the one that doesn't consider poison oak dangerous. Yes it's in the woods. I say if the woods have poison oak in them, treat them like lateral hazards. +1 stroke at point of entry. I'm not going in there to even retrieve the ball. That ball is gone as far as I'm concerned.

They don't meet the definition of lateral hazards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

I saw someone pick up my 205 yd 5 wood shot that was in perfect position and I was yelling at him when I saw him. So with my ball gone, I get to rehit that shot with a penalty of stroke and distance since it was league. I get penalized because some ******* stole my ball. In a casual round I'd drop up there because it's BS.

So…

Quote:

18-1 . By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency , there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

[Fourputt]

I'm not being combative or making fun of your family member here guys. I'm just expressing my opinion of fairness.

If this is the way it has to be then PGA golfers should never be allowed to have people looking for their balls or use film to find their balls.

So the rule basically favors professionals and people with money that can afford to pay a spotter. Why do you not have any problem with those things?

Also I don't think you know what a straw man is....

What I don't get is why some guys always try to equate themselves with Tour players (by the way, that is the straw man in this discussion).  You aren't playing a competition with millions at stake and thousands of spectators.  You don't have a retinue walking the course with you, and volunteer marshals on every hole for crowd control and to assist as forecaddies.  That's life.

Any competition you do play will have the same conditions for all players, whether that means you have a small gallery of well wishers, or nobody but your foursome, and all the rules will ever do for you in this regard is to make sure that in like situations, you are treated the same as any other player in your competition.

[pumaAttack]

Why not just make the rule drop and take a one stroke penalty? If you are hitting into the sun with tall rough and leaf cover, you could literally hit 10 tee shots and never find one. I am not going to walk 250 yards, search for 5 minutes. Give up and walk back. Rinse and repeat 10 times.... That is incredible unpractical for a casual of league golf match. And people who would enforce the rules like that are the reason more people don't play golf. "While we are young." Do you really want to play longer rounds? If it's a match play event, both players have to watch the shot and agree on a fair drop spot and take the one stroke penalty. No distance. If it's a stroke play event, all golfers decide on a common fair spot. Drop and take the penalty. If it's just for fun or handicap, take your best guess and drop from there. If you can play 14 holes and "use your best guess for the remaining holes" to fill in your scorecard, surely you can use your best guess for where to drop a ball. If it were your tee shot, you are now hitting 3 from the rough. I think thats a fair penalty.

[Martyn W]

I'm not being combative or making fun of your family member here guys. I'm just expressing my opinion of fairness.

If this is the way it has to be then PGA golfers should never be allowed to have people looking for their balls or use film to find their balls.

So the rule basically favors professionals and people with money that can afford to pay a spotter. Why do you not have any problem with those things?

Also I don't think you know what a straw man is....

Yes, tour players do have the benefit of spectators locating their ball but I would contend the the disadvantages of having galleries outweighs the advantages: morons yelling 'get in the hole!', cameras clicking, cellphones ringing, movement in peripheral vision etc. etc.

[pumaAttack]

Yes, tour players do have the benefit of spectators locating their ball but I would contend the the disadvantages of having galleries outweighs the advantages: morons yelling 'get in the hole!', cameras clicking, cellphones ringing, movement in peripheral vision etc. etc.

Not really a valid comparison at all. One is an annoyance and the other is a measurable stroke on your scorecard. Also. How many times have we watched a pro event and this situation happens. The golfer, marshals, fans, Etc. are looking for a ball. The TV crew pans over and shows the ball literally 5 feet from where one person looked. They then get the help of the TV crew to locate the ball. No stroke and no distance. They obviously knew where the ball was roughly but just didn't see it. That happens. Yet accordingly to some people it's more fair to walk back 250 yards and hit 3 off the tee.... Ok... So when that situation happens to a rec golfer, you honestly think it's more aligned in the rules to take a stroke and distance penalty when the pro just got tons of help but still needed a TV crew to locate his shot? Where in the original rules did it say "use the feed from the aerial cam to locate your ball. "

[Martyn W]

Not really a valid comparison at all. One is an annoyance and the other is a measurable stroke on your scorecard.

Also. How many times have we watched a pro event and this situation happens. The golfer, marshals, fans, Etc. are looking for a ball. The TV crew pans over and shows the ball literally 5 feet from where one person looked. They then get the help of the TV crew to locate the ball. No stroke and no distance. They obviously knew where the ball was roughly but just didn't see it. That happens. Yet accordingly to some people it's more fair to walk back 250 yards and hit 3 off the tee.... Ok...

So when that situation happens to a rec golfer, you honestly think it's more aligned in the rules to take a stroke and distance penalty when the pro just got tons of help but still needed a TV crew to locate his shot?

Where in the original rules did it say "use the feed from the aerial cam to locate your ball. "

I have played golf professionally for almost 40 years and, trust me, 'annoyances', as you call them, have cost me way more strokes than having someone find my ball has saved me..

As far as your last question - the principle "if the Rules don't say you can't, you can" applies.

[pumaAttack]

Well I just actually read the rules and I was right all along. I can 100% take a free drop in the situations I outlined. You guys may want to read rule 27-1. Before or after you get off your high horses.

[Martyn W]

Well I just actually read the rules and I was right all along. I can 100% take a free drop in the situations I outlined.

You guys may want to read rule 25-1 c. Before or after you get off your high horses.

Check the definition of AGC. You might also look at D25/1

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

That happens. Yet accordingly to some people it's more fair to walk back 250 yards and hit 3 off the tee.... Ok...

So when that situation happens to a rec golfer, you honestly think it's more aligned in the rules to take a stroke and distance penalty when the pro just got tons of help but still needed a TV crew to locate his shot?

Where in the original rules did it say "use the feed from the aerial cam to locate your ball. "

Do Pros get help from fans and people who work during the tournament to find golf balls, yes. This also allows the courses to grow the rough up as well.

I also know that I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a PGA Tour player walk back to the tee to rehit. Most of the time they hit a provisional.

Yes it's aligned with the rules because if a PGA Tour player loses a golf ball out in the open they would still have to walk back to the tee. Do I think courses need to keep the rough at a reasonable level for us amateurs, yes I do. I don't think a course that gets a lot of play should have the rough high that you have to spend significant time searching for your ball every time it enters the rough. Does that give you a right to drop a ball and disregard the rules of golf, nope.

Rules never said you couldn't get help looking for a golf ball. Heck, I've found the ball for a few guys before who were not even on the hole I was playing. Should that be discounted since I was nice enough to tell them were their ball was at because I happened to look for it as I was going to my next shot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

Well I just actually read the rules and I was right all along. I can 100% take a free drop in the situations I outlined.

You guys may want to read rule 25-1 c. Before or after you get off your high horses.

No you can't. Definition of an abnormal ground condition that allows you to use 25-1c. High rough is not stated as an abnormal ground condition. So no, you can not use 25-1c. You do not get to specify what is or is not an abnormal ground condition.

Quote:

Abnormal Ground Conditions

An " abnormal ground condition " is any casual water , ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal , a reptile or a bird.

[iacas]

This is what always bothers me about the lost ball policy.

If I hit a drive a few yards off the fairway, and there are a bunch of leaves on the ground, it may be impossible to find the ball.  Even though I know roughly were the ball stopped and is in bounds.

In that scenario, I just take a free drop instead of taking 5 minutes looking for it.  I don't have the benefit of large crowds, marshalls and tv cameras to find my ball.   Seems like an unfair rule for the causal golfer.

Well I just actually read the rules and I was right all along. I can 100% take a free drop in the situations I outlined.

You guys may want to read rule 25-1 c. Before or after you get off your high horses.

Uhhhh, leaves on the ground are not an "abnormal ground condition."

An " abnormal ground condition " is any casual water , ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal , a reptile or a bird.

This is one of the problems with discussing the Rules of Golf with people who don't know them very well: there are some very solid reasons and a foundation (one might even say some … Principles …) by which we have the current Rules of Golf. If you can't even define "abnormal ground conditions" and think it covers a few leaves being on the ground (or was it the high rough?), then you really aren't equipped to discuss this sort of stuff. You get to have an opinion , sure, but we also get to disregard your opinion as uninformed.

Why not just make the rule drop and take a one stroke penalty?

If you are hitting into the sun with tall rough and leaf cover, you could literally hit 10 tee shots and never find one.

I am not going to walk 250 yards, search for 5 minutes. Give up and walk back. Rinse and repeat 10 times.... That is incredible unpractical for a casual of league golf match. And people who would enforce the rules like that are the reason more people don't play golf. "While we are young." Do you really want to play longer rounds?

Let's try not to just make stuff up. When's the last time anyone, ever, anywhere had 10 lost balls in a round? :P

Not really a valid comparison at all. One is an annoyance and the other is a measurable stroke on your scorecard.

Also. How many times have we watched a pro event and this situation happens. The golfer, marshals, fans, Etc. are looking for a ball. The TV crew pans over and shows the ball literally 5 feet from where one person looked. They then get the help of the TV crew to locate the ball. No stroke and no distance. They obviously knew where the ball was roughly but just didn't see it. That happens. Yet accordingly to some people it's more fair to walk back 250 yards and hit 3 off the tee.... Ok...

So when that situation happens to a rec golfer, you honestly think it's more aligned in the rules to take a stroke and distance penalty when the pro just got tons of help but still needed a TV crew to locate his shot?

Where in the original rules did it say "use the feed from the aerial cam to locate your ball. "

If you can get closer to the truth, you do it. That's all.

[pumaAttack]

So when it's a valid point it's a straw man... Got it. I loved how you all ignored the "make up your score on each hole you can't play" argument. How is that better than taking a free drop 5 feet from where I can't find my ball? Obviously you all have amazing vision and have never played into the Colorado sun during the evening. I could literally hit 10 shots and not see the landing location of any of them. That sure would be a fun round for me and everybody behind me. Nah I think I will take the free drop. If it's near water or OB I will take those penalties.

[pumaAttack]

Uhhhh, leaves on the ground are not an "abnormal ground condition." [COLOR=474B55]An "[/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Abnormal-Ground-Conditions]abnormal ground condition[/URL][/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55]" is any [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Casual-Water]casual water[/URL][/COLOR], [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Ground-Under-Repair]ground under repair[/URL][/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] or hole, cast or runway on the [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Course]course[/URL][/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] made by a [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55] [COLOR=474B55][URL=http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Burrowing-Animal]burrowing animal[/URL][/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=474B55], a reptile or a bird.[/COLOR] This is one of the problems with discussing the Rules of Golf with people who don't know them very well: there are some very solid reasons and a foundation (one might even say some … Principles …) by which we have the current Rules of Golf. If you can't even define "abnormal ground conditions" and think it covers a few leaves being on the ground (or was it the high rough?), then you really aren't equipped to discuss this sort of stuff. You get to have an opinion , sure, but we also get to disregard your opinion as uninformed. Let's try not to just make stuff up. When's the last time anyone, ever, anywhere had 10 lost balls in a round? :P If you can get closer to the truth, you do it. That's all.

If people actually played by the rules, I bet 10 lost balls happens a hell of a lot of times. Why is that so hard to believe... To me, dropping 5 feet from where my ball is "virtually certain" to be laying is a "lot closer to the truth" than hitting 3 from the tee.

[David in FL]

So when it's a valid point it's a straw man... Got it. I loved how you all ignored the "make up your score on each hole you can't play" argument. How is that better than taking a free drop 5 feet from where I can't find my ball? Obviously you all have amazing vision and have never played into the Colorado sun during the evening. I could literally hit 10 shots and not see the landing location of any of them. That sure would be a fun round for me and everybody behind me. Nah I think I will take the free drop. If it's near water or OB I will take those penalties.

If you can't find your ball, how do you always know where to drop "5 feet" from it? Of course, you don't. Oftentimes you can't be sure you're within 50 yards.... I know you might find it hard to believe, but the sun rises and sets elsewhere in the world too. Heck, almost every day! ;-) Have fun. Play by the rules, or not. It's no skin off my nose whatsoever. In fact, if it helps speed up your pace of play, I encourage you to play however you like. But there are genuine reasons, built around the guiding principles of the game that are the basis for the rules as they are. Failing to follow those principles, by definition, fundamentally changes the game of golf.