The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[Abu3baid]

38 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I guess I could have given an example, for those who need it?

Let's say the posted speed limit is 65mph, and your car only goes 55mph. That car can never go the full limit and will slow down cars behind it. If that me car could go 75 mph, it will always be able to go the speed limit.

So, having the capability to play at a 3 hour pace given no obstructions means you will be able to keep up with a 4 hour pace.

BTW, a 3 hour pace for a foursome is really just a no frills ready golf pace without rushing or anthing. As a twosome, my partners and I have played 18 holes in random order in under 2.75 hours without rushing. If we were to play super fast I think we could possibly break 1.5 to 2 hours with a cart. That would be just hit and go, and putt and go without waiting at all.

3 hour pace for a foursome is lightning fast IMO and an expectation that is hard to fulfil.  The interesting part is that you talk about the 3 hour pace for a foursome and then you give examples of a twosome at 2.75..  

When I play golf I play it at a leisurely pace.. I'm not there to rush through as fast as possible as I don't find that "fun".  Am I always ready to play?  Yes.  Am I always in the right spot?  Yes.  Do I run to my ball?  No.  Do I speed walk?  No.  Do I read my putts while others are putting?  Yes.  I am just not going to rush..  Heck, my partner and I played a 3 hour round twosome today, and I shot a 95 and he shot a 102..  Then on the second 18 we played the first 9 at 1.5 and when we got teamed up with another two we ended up playing the other 9 at 2 hours and 3 minutes.  Which would be right around a 4 hour pace..  BTW the posted pace for the course is 4:15 so as long as no one goes over 4:30 I don't think anyone is going to really care.. 

 

[Dave2512]

20 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sure, but if they can keep pace there shouldn't be any slow downs. It only takes one slow party to bunch up everyone.

Not reality. One errant shot, we all do this, might take a few minutes to resolve. This is going to happen over and over again as groups progress around the course. One slow group can be a problem but what makes the difference between a 3:50 round and a 4:12 round is many groups losing a little time here and there while still remaining bunched together. Nobody thinks 45 seconds is a long time. But if a group finishes 45 seconds slow on 13 holes they are 6 minutes behind the pace. This will happen without losing sight of the group ahead.

 

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

3 hour pace for a foursome is lightning fast IMO and an expectation that is hard to fulfil.  The interesting part is that you talk about the 3 hour pace for a foursome and then you give examples of a twosome at 2.75..  

When I play golf I play it at a leisurely pace.. I'm not there to rush through as fast as possible as I don't find that "fun".  Am I always ready to play?  Yes.  Am I always in the right spot?  Yes.  Do I run to my ball?  No.  Do I speed walk?  No.  Do I read my putts while others are putting?  Yes.  I am just not going to rush..  Heck, my partner and I played a 3 hour round twosome today, and I shot a 95 and he shot a 102..  Then on the second 18 we played the first 9 at 1.5 and when we got teamed up with another two we ended up playing the other 9 at 2 hours and 3 minutes.  Which would be right around a 4 hour pace..  BTW the posted pace for the course is 4:15 so as long as no one goes over 4:30 I don't think anyone is going to really care.. 

In my experience, ready golf really makes things pretty fast even for a 4 some. BTW, 2.75 hours is a rough average as we did wait for other players. . .

8 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Not reality. One errant shot, we all do this, might take a few minutes to resolve. This is going to happen over and over again as groups progress around the course. One slow group can be a problem but what makes the difference between a 3:50 round and a 4:12 round is many groups losing a little time here and there while still remaining bunched together. Nobody thinks 45 seconds is a long time. But if a group finishes a 45 seconds slow on 13 holes they are 6 minutes behind the pace.

Once a couple groups bunch up at one tee box, the entire course is now running at a much slower pace.

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

I guess I could have given an example, for those who need it?

Let's say the posted speed limit is 65mph, and your car only goes 55mph. That car can never go the full limit and will slow down cars behind it. If that me car could go 75 mph, it will always be able to go the speed limit.

So, having the capability to play at a 3 hour pace given no obstructions means you will be able to keep up with a 4 hour pace.

BTW, a 3 hour pace for a foursome is really just a no frills ready golf pace without rushing or anthing. As a twosome, my partners and I have played 18 holes in random order in under 2.75 hours without rushing. If we were to play super fast I think we could possibly break 1.5 to 2 hours with a cart. That would be just hit and go, and putt and go without waiting at all.

I disagree, speed limits and pace of play are two different things.  Highways have a posted speed limit and a minimum speed.  Here is NY, the speed limit is 55 mph and minimum speed is 40 mph.  That means cars on the highway can legally drive anywhere between 40 mph and 55 mph.  The police do not tell drivers to drive 65 mph to compensate for those who drive 40 mph or to ensure everyone can drive 55 mph.  

As for golf, most courses post a pace of play of 4 hours to 4:15.  That means as a paying customer or member of the club I'm expected to complete my round in 4 - 4:15.  That pace of play is equivalent to the minimum speed, not the speed limit.  No where does it say as a foursome I have to play in 3 hours or even less than 4 hours.   

Sounds like you need to allocate more time for golf or find less crowded courses to play if that is your expectation.   

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I disagree, speed limits and pace of play are two different things.  Highways have a posted speed limit and a minimum speed.  Here is NY, the speed limit is 55 mph and minimum speed is 40 mph.  That means cars on the highway can legally drive anywhere between 40 mph and 55 mph.  The police do not tell drivers to drive 65 mph to compensate for those who drive 40 mph or to ensure everyone can drive 55 mph.  

As for golf, most courses post a pace of play of 4 hours to 4:15.  That means as a paying customer or member of the club I'm expected to complete my round in 4 - 4:15.  That pace of play is equivalent to the minimum speed, not the speed limit.  No where does it say as a foursome I have to play in 3 hours or even less than 4 hours.    

Huh? All I was stating is that if you can't play faster than the required pace of play, that there is very little chance you will be able to maintain that required pace of play.

[newtogolf]

Just now, Lihu said:

Huh? All I was stating is that if you can't play faster than the required pace of play there is very little chance you will be able to maintain that pace of play.

Why?  Some holes go faster than others but as long as they average out over 18 to 4 hours who cares?  

[Lihu]

20 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Why?  Some holes go faster than others but as long as they average out over 18 to 4 hours who cares?  

Ah, I get what you're doing. You're defending the 4 hour pace as a target time.

Okay I disagree with that, it should be a maximum time for a slow foursome.

[Dave2512]

47 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Once a couple groups bunch up at one tee box, the entire course is now running at a much slower pace.

That is uncommon at least I don't see it.

[Abu3baid]

6 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

That is uncommon at least I don't see it.

I've only seen this once or twice and it was during a tournament where they started 2 groups on each of the 4 par 5s.  Other than that, no I haven't seen it either during regular play yet.

[Dave2512]

1 minute ago, Abu3baid said:

I've only seen this once or twice and it was during a tournament where they started 2 groups on each of the 4 par 5s.  Other than that, no I haven't seen it either during regular play yet.

If it does occur it's not a slow play problem it's a course management, ranger problem. Lot's of crazy stuff would have to happen before it got that bad.

However the exception, and this drives me effen nuts, is guys waiting for the green to clear on perceivably drivable par 4's. I do see minor waiting at our two shortest par 4's. If I get stuck behind some oblivious a-holes doing that I will be on their tails pushing them. I will be standing at my ball lasering my approach while they are on the green so they get the point to get on with it if they fall behind. My shot will be in the air the second they are in the cart.

[Lihu]

41 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

That is uncommon at least I don't see it.

I see it every time I go out on any course in my area.

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

Sure, but if they can keep pace there shouldn't be any slow downs. It only takes one slow party to bunch up everyone.

How is it that you can post this, yet every other California golfer who posts says that the norm is 5 plus hours out there.  Odd how your experience is so different.

You talk an optimum time for a group of experienced, ready golfers, and expect that to be maintained on a full course?  It isn't going to happen, not on any course in the US that I ever heard of.  Optimum is a best case scenario, and when the course is full best case goes out the window.  Usually even the median case is gone.  

To be perfectly honest, I don't really believe that you have accurately recorded and documented enough rounds to be able to make those claims.  I've been playing golf for 40 years an I can state unequivocally that I would never consider making such a claim and most of the guys I play with can easily play a 3½ hour round as a fourball.  Despite that capability, it rarely happens.  For one thing, when the opportunity presents that there is nothing in front of us to impede a round and nobody behind pushing us, we are more likely to take that extra minute or two on a search for an errant ball, even if a provisional ball was played.  Why not?  We aren't holding anything up and we do believe in playing by the rules, so a minute added here and there adds up.  If you really do what you believe you do, then great, but I'd have to see it.  

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

How is it that you can post this, yet every other California golfer who posts says that the norm is 5 plus hours out there.  Odd how your experience is so different.

You talk an optimum time for a group of experienced, ready golfers, and expect that to be maintained on a full course?  It isn't going to happen, not on any course in the US that I ever heard of.  Optimum is a best case scenario, and when the course is full best case goes out the window.  Usually even the median case is gone.  

To be perfectly honest, I don't really believe that you have accurately recorded and documented enough rounds to be able to make those claims.  I've been playing golf for 40 years an I can state unequivocally that I would never consider making such a claim and most of the guys I play with can easily play a 3½ hour round as a fourball.  Despite that capability, it rarely happens.  For one thing, when the opportunity presents that there is nothing in front of us to impede a round and nobody behind pushing us, we are more likely to take that extra minute or two on a search for an errant ball, even if a provisional ball was played.  Why not?  We aren't holding anything up and we do believe in playing by the rules, so a minute added here and there adds up.  If you really do what you believe you do, then great, but I'd have to see it.  

You must have missed the multiple times I mentioned playing ready golf, or you wouldn't be so upset in your response?

Yeah, 5 hours or longer are about right on the weekends.

I don't play on the weekends that much, and definitely don't on some days on the weekdays when over crowded.

So, ready golf is often times out of order, but it's much faster. Also, we typically have 4 carts for 4 players.

Playing by the rules doesn't mean slower either.

[CR McDivot]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

...Also, we typically have 4 carts for 4 players.

Yep... that happens a lot on a full muni!

The expected pace on the course I mentioned is 4:30. Tee spacing is 8:00. It actually works quite well. Some folks play a bit faster, some a bit slower... but seldom even on weekends is a round much over 4:30 (even the Ladies League is strictly clocked).

Then again we are not Californicators!

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, Fourputt said:

How is it that you can post this, yet every other California golfer who posts says that the norm is 5 plus hours out there.  Odd how your experience is so different.

You talk an optimum time for a group of experienced, ready golfers, and expect that to be maintained on a full course?  It isn't going to happen, not on any course in the US that I ever heard of.  Optimum is a best case scenario, and when the course is full best case goes out the window.  Usually even the median case is gone.  

To be perfectly honest, I don't really believe that you have accurately recorded and documented enough rounds to be able to make those claims.  I've been playing golf for 40 years an I can state unequivocally that I would never consider making such a claim and most of the guys I play with can easily play a 3½ hour round as a fourball.  Despite that capability, it rarely happens.  For one thing, when the opportunity presents that there is nothing in front of us to impede a round and nobody behind pushing us, we are more likely to take that extra minute or two on a search for an errant ball, even if a provisional ball was played.  Why not?  We aren't holding anything up and we do believe in playing by the rules, so a minute added here and there adds up.  If you really do what you believe you do, then great, but I'd have to see it.  

I guess your BS detector went off like mine did. 

Let's see. Four 12-18 HC players are expected to play 18, walking in 3 (Lihu) hours when 2 of the absolute best players in the world get to play 18 in 4:30 in a PGA tournament. Seems reasonable.

I will add the pace of play is a bit like internet driving distance in that some people have trouble giving an accurate account. They play slower than they think they do.

[Fourputt]

7 hours ago, Lihu said:

You must have missed the multiple times I mentioned playing ready golf, or you wouldn't be so upset in your response?

Yeah, 5 hours or longer are about right on the weekends.

I don't play on the weekends that much, and definitely don't on some days on the weekdays when over crowded.

So, ready golf is often times out of order, but it's much faster. Also, we typically have 4 carts for 4 players.

Playing by the rules doesn't mean slower either.

When you are making outrageous claims, you need to add those qualifying statements right at the start.  4 players in 4 carts is so rare as to be about the equivalent of finding a 2 pound diamond.  It doesn't matter what day of the week either.  Just because they have the carts to spare, it doesn't pay the course to let them out like that, and no course I play will do it.  Just about the only time I see a person alone in a cart is if there are an odd number of riders in a group.  

For my money, you might as well be playing alone, for all of the socializing you can do all racing around in separate carts.  I like interacting with the guys I'm playing with - not to the point of slowing down play, but while moving from shot to shot and hole to hole, etc.  In separate carts that is impossible, and would detract from the experience.

[bkuehn1952]

3 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I will add the pace of play is a bit like internet driving distance in that some people have trouble giving an accurate account. They play slower than they think they do.

Yes.  Most tales of extremely fast play involves an empty course and a single player in a cart.  Discussions about how fast one can play are pointless.  Golf is not a race [unless one is engaging in Speed Golf].  The point of the game is to shoot the lowest number, not return the cart by 7:30am.

[DeadMan]

Let me just add a little something to why pace of play is so important. I have an 8 week old at home, and it's pretty tough to justify 5 hours at the golf course. Getting rounds to 4 hours or less would be amazing for me, and would let me play a lot more golf. A lot easier to get out and play 18 if I can get home in 4 hours.

So, you guys that don't care about how fast you play, your selfishness means I get to play less golf. Thanks a lot.

I played yesterday, stuck behind a group that was slow as hell. They were constantly a hole behind. The classics that cause slow play. One player setting up for a shot at a time. Marking everything on the green. Waiting in carts right by the green instead of leaving quickly. Not that it would have mattered too much given that the course was pretty stacked, but a couple of groups like that really slow things down.