The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[DeadMan]

You are delusional if you think under 4 hours is possible for a foursome on a public course.  On a private course, sure.

I, along with many others on this board, have literally done it. I agree that it's close to impossible if you have to wait on other people on the course. But if the first group of the day can play in under 4 hours, then everybody should be able to do it. The problem is that there are many people who do not understand how to, or don't care to, play fast.

Let's put it this way. First tee time on a public course, you should be done in less than 4 hours. A tee time at 9am on a Saturday, yeah, you're not finishing in 4 hours. Again, if you think you can't finish in under 4 hours as a foursome when the course is open, you are part of the problem.

[Fourputt]

I can play much much faster if I walk versus a cart.

A cart really slows down play, unless there is large gaps between holes.

I always wait for someone to post this myth every time there is a thread on slow play.  It's wrong and totally lacking in logic.  Carts only slow down play if they are driven by slow golfers, just as walking only slows play when in involves slow players.  A cart typically goes 10-15 miles per hours, an average walker no more than 3.  That means the cart will get to the ball at least 3 times as fast as the walker.  Assuming that playing the shot takes the same amount of time, and even giving the walker a slight edge in that he can walk straight to the green while the rider needs to park a few seconds walk away, the rider will still beat the walker to the green if he doesn't stop and wait for the walker to get to his drive and hit before he goes forward to the green.

If we both leave the tee at the same time, on a 250 yard drive, I will get to my passenger's ball, drop him off, go to my ball while he hits, I hit, I pick him up and we are off to the green while the walker is just arriving at his ball.  We will be standing on the green waiting for the walker to get there.  It's slightly slower if there are two walkers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGoosen

I think a cart slows things down if it is cart path only, but I can play every bit as fast with a cart.

Saturday morning we went out as a twosome 1st tee time of the day 6:45 am. I took a cart and he carried his bad. I found myself waiting on the other guy several times and I doubt he had to wait on me once.

Sure, a cart with one person is faster than walking...

I mean the cart with two people, who have to wait on each others shots and often have to run back to the cart to get their wedge or putter.

How many times have you seen 4 carts for a foursome?

Never, because it isn't necessary.  You obviously don't know how a cart is supposed to be used, and in that lack of knowledge you are unfortunately no different from too many riders.  Like any other facet of the slow play problem, it isn't the cart that causes slow play, it's the lack of education for the players using the cart.  I can' say the same for 95% of the walkers I see too.

[newtogolf]

THIS is one of the specific issues with slow players.  They do NOT have to wait on each other's shots.  They choose to wait and watch, and then drive to their own ball, when they should be out of the cart and on the way to their own ball.  They should NOT have to run back to the cart often, they should pay attention to yardage indicators and take 2 or 3 or even 4 clubs with them.  Two players in a cart CAN be reasonably quick, if they're not lazy, and if they learn what to do, and then DO it.  I understand there are a few people with physical issues that can't walk very far, but the vast majority of players in carts can certainly walk 40 or 50 yards with 3 clubs without too much strain.

Its the guy who walks 30 yards with only his laser, then walks back to get a club, then walks again to his ball to hit.  If you take one club, you have a chance to have the right one.  If you take 2 or 3 clubs, you're almost certain to have the right one.  If you walk away from the cart with NO clubs, you're guaranteed NOT to have the right one.

They don't have to watch each others shots but unless the guy is a single digit handicap it's better for his playing partner to take the time to watch his shot and see where the ball lands than to search blindly for a ball no one knows where it landed.

[Jon Hoover]

Jon, how many rounds under 4 hours do you play on county courses here in S FL in the winter?

Hopefully all... but unfortunately that's not the case the problems is that you have all the snow birds from up north who are used to playing these 4-5 hr rounds and think its normal like many on this site. I'd say it depends on the course your playing at and the time, if your playing on  a course that books with CanAm you will most likely be waiting on every shot and your looking at 4:30 average. The thing is you have to find the right course which will be more expensive but you'll avoid the waiting.

[pumaAttack]

I, along with many others on this board, have literally done it. I agree that it's close to impossible if you have to wait on other people on the course. But if the first group of the day can play in under 4 hours, then everybody should be able to do it. The problem is that there are many people who do not understand how to, or don't care to, play fast.

Let's put it this way. First tee time on a public course, you should be done in less than 4 hours. A tee time at 9am on a Saturday, yeah, you're not finishing in 4 hours. Again, if you think you can't finish in under 4 hours as a foursome when the course is open, you are part of the problem.

I never said I can't finish under 4 hours...  When its twilight and the course is open I can play 18 holes in 3 hours, walking.

I said its impossible on a public course.  It's the same as the interstate and traffic.  Could everybody be driving at 70mph, sure?  Do they?  No.  Those slow backups build up over the 18 holes and you are left with a round closer to 5 hours than 4.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

I can play much much faster if I walk versus a cart.

A cart really slows down play, unless there is large gaps between holes.

I always wait for someone to post this myth every time there is a thread on slow play.  It's wrong and totally lacking in logic.  Carts only slow down play if they are driven by slow golfers, just as walking only slows play when in involves slow players.  A cart typically goes 10-15 miles per hours, an average walker no more than 3.  That means the cart will get to the ball at least 3 times as fast as the walker.  Assuming that playing the shot takes the same amount of time, and even giving the walker a slight edge in that he can walk straight to the green while the rider needs to park a few seconds walk away, the rider will still beat the walker to the green if he doesn't stop and wait for the walker to get to his drive and hit before he goes forward to the green.

Even a cart that only goes 6mph on a cart path only day will beat a walker every time. Maybe, not a running golfer though. . .

Perhaps Puma is talking about 2 people sharing a cart and neither of the players getting dropped off at their balls when appropriate?

[pumaAttack]

I always wait for someone to post this myth every time there is a thread on slow play.  It's wrong and totally lacking in logic.  Carts only slow down play if they are driven by slow golfers, just as walking only slows play when in involves slow players.  A cart typically goes 10-15 miles per hours, an average walker no more than 3.  That means the cart will get to the ball at least 3 times as fast as the walker.  Assuming that playing the shot takes the same amount of time, and even giving the walker a slight edge in that he can walk straight to the green while the rider needs to park a few seconds walk away, the rider will still beat the walker to the green if he doesn't stop and wait for the walker to get to his drive and hit before he goes forward to the green.

If we both leave the tee at the same time, on a 250 yard drive, I will get to my passenger's ball, drop him off, go to my ball while he hits, I hit, I pick him up and we are off to the green while the walker is just arriving at his ball.  We will be standing on the green waiting for the walker to get there.  It's slightly slower if there are two walkers.

Never, because it isn't necessary.  You obviously don't know how a cart is supposed to be used, and in that lack of knowledge you are unfortunately no different from too many riders.  Like any other facet of the slow play problem, it isn't the cart that causes slow play, it's the lack of education for the players using the cart.  I can' say the same for 95% of the walkers I see too.

I have played many rounds walking alongside a twosome in a cart.   I am usually ahead of them come the next shot and the next hole....  I can walk in a straight line directly to my shot and the green.  The carts can't do that. Glad you have a universal answer for that myth though!!

I never use a cart, so go ahead and leave me out of the "don't know how to use a cart" demographic.  Thanks.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I always wait for someone to post this myth every time there is a thread on slow play.  It's wrong and totally lacking in logic.  Carts only slow down play if they are driven by slow golfers, just as walking only slows play when in involves slow players.  A cart typically goes 10-15 miles per hours, an average walker no more than 3.  That means the cart will get to the ball at least 3 times as fast as the walker.  Assuming that playing the shot takes the same amount of time, and even giving the walker a slight edge in that he can walk straight to the green while the rider needs to park a few seconds walk away, the rider will still beat the walker to the green if he doesn't stop and wait for the walker to get to his drive and hit before he goes forward to the green.

If we both leave the tee at the same time, on a 250 yard drive, I will get to my passenger's ball, drop him off, go to my ball while he hits, I hit, I pick him up and we are off to the green while the walker is just arriving at his ball.  We will be standing on the green waiting for the walker to get there.  It's slightly slower if there are two walkers.

Never, because it isn't necessary.  You obviously don't know how a cart is supposed to be used, and in that lack of knowledge you are unfortunately no different from too many riders.  Like any other facet of the slow play problem, it isn't the cart that causes slow play, it's the lack of education for the players using the cart.  I can' say the same for 95% of the walkers I see too.

I have played many roads walking with a person in a cart.   I am usually ahead of them come the next shot and the next hole....   Glad you have a universal answer for that myth though!!

I never use a cart, so go ahead and leave me out of the "don't know how to use a cart" demographic.  Thanks.

It's only faster if the walkers walk to their respective balls and the cart people sit and wait for each player to hit.

[pumaAttack]

It's only faster if the walkers walk to their respective balls and the cart people sit and wait for each player to hit.

You have to look at the entire scene.

If player A hits his ball 250 on the right side of the fairway and player B hits his 300 yards on the left side, that is going to take more time.  Player A can be dropped off but player B still has to traverse the fairway and go the extra 50 yards.  That is assuming he can cut in front of player A, or he may have to wait.

You guys look at everything idealistically, which is not realistic...  Of course a cart goes faster than walking does, I am not arguing that.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It's only faster if the walkers walk to their respective balls and the cart people sit and wait for each player to hit.

You have to look at the entire scene.

If player A hits his ball 250 on the right side of the fairway and player B hits his 300 yards on the left side, that is going to take more time.  Player A can be dropped off but player B still has to traverse the fairway and go the extra 50 yards.  That is assuming he can cut in front of player A, or he may have to wait.

You guys look at everything idealistically, which is not realistic...  Of course a cart goes faster than walking does, I am not arguing that.

Realistically, no one is going to be waiting on a tee box for a twosome hitting 250 and 300 yards respectively.

I get your point, but cart users just need to get to their ball and pick a club, then the other player drives directly to their ball. That's the way my son and I play and we have the ability to finish 18 holes in under 2:00. Without a cart, I need to catch my breath a little bit on the longer holes. My son and his friends (co-team mates) can finish in under 2 hours walking/carrying, but they're 15-17 years old.

[DaveP043]

They don't have to watch each others shots but unless the guy is a single digit handicap it's better for his playing partner to take the time to watch his shot and see where the ball lands than to search blindly for a ball no one knows where it landed.

I don't know how anyone else does this, but if I'm the one walking to my ball, I turn around pretty regularly to check where my cart-partner is in his shot process.  When he's ready to hit, I stop and watch.  Then I continue to my ball while he cleans his club and puts it away.  Usually, I've hit before he gets drives up close to me, and we drive happily on to the next shot.  I play with golfers of all handicap levels, and we don't often have issues with lost balls.  In fact, I think having two angles on the ball's flight often makes it easier to locate it.

[pumaAttack]

Maybe a poll needs to be added:

Do you play public courses or private courses.

If we are not talking about the same environment, then the time really does not apply.

[Big C]

They don't have to watch each others shots but unless the guy is a single digit handicap it's better for his playing partner to take the time to watch his shot and see where the ball lands than to search blindly for a ball no one knows where it landed.

Ehhh. I don't really agree. Keep in mind, that the hardest shots to track are errant drives - where everyone is already waiting for other playing partner's shots to be completed (and can therefore keep multiple sets of eyes on them). In general, even poor golfers should have a pretty good idea of where their approach shots are headed - And, as Dave pointed out above, tracking approach shots can still be done from afar while others are headed to their shots.

[colin007]

i oftentimes find myself waiting on the other two guys sharing a cart if im walking and get paired with them.

[Jon Hoover]

Maybe a poll needs to be added:

Do you play public courses or private courses.

If we are not talking about the same environment, then the time really does not apply.

I always play public courses but some public courses are faster then others, I know if I play a round that is 4+hrs, theirs a slim chance I will return to that course, but I also live in an area that has hundreds of courses in a 30mi radius.

[DaveP043]

Maybe a poll needs to be added:

Do you play public courses or private courses.

If we are not talking about the same environment, then the time really does not apply.

The same good procedures apply, or should apply, no matter where you play.  Nobody suggests that you can play any faster than the groups of players ahead of you.  What I think many of us are suggesting is that the pace of play can, and should, be improved by simple good practices of ready golf.  It requires educating slower players, and it requires the slower players to accept the goal of increasing their pace of play.  I don't think the kinds of things I talk about require anyone to "hurry", just to be aware.  And I suppose, it means that some of them will have to get their lazy backside out of the cart and walk a few paces.

[Lihu]

Maybe a poll needs to be added:

Do you play public courses or private courses.

If we are not talking about the same environment, then the time really does not apply.

Private courses usually space things out better, so everyone who pays the $20,000/year maintenance fees has a wonderful experience. I can't imagine paying that much money and having to wait for every shot I make.

I played quite a few private courses and there was no wait on any tee box. I guess the starters put parties in an order that makes sense time wise?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It's only faster if the walkers walk to their respective balls and the cart people sit and wait for each player to hit.

You have to look at the entire scene.

If player A hits his ball 250 on the right side of the fairway and player B hits his 300 yards on the left side, that is going to take more time.  Player A can be dropped off but player B still has to traverse the fairway and go the extra 50 yards.  That is assuming he can cut in front of player A, or he may have to wait.

You guys look at everything idealistically, which is not realistic...  Of course a cart goes faster than walking does, I am not arguing that.

The same issues can and do exist for walking players too.  A walker can't go to his ball 30 yards in front of his buddy's ball.  In fact as a rider i can save more time in that scenario too, as I will get to the balls more than a minute before the walker, I can drive up to my ball, get my yardage, check the lie, then drive out of the way and pick my club so that when my walking friend has hit, all I have to do is driver out and play my shot.  All the planning is already done.  I will do this several times each round if the situation allows it.  Most of the time it isn't necessary because we are usually waiting anyway, even on fast players.

A couple of weeks ago I played 2 rounds at Foothills on Friday then one round at Fox Hollow on Saturday and the longest round was at Fox (4:05), and we waited interminably for every tee and approach shot.  Both rounds at foothills (one at 9 AM and one at about 12:20) were well under 4 hours.  In both cases we were all in carts.