General Politics Thread

[jbishop15]

I decided to start this thread in the spirit of discussing politics outside of the lense of Donald Trump. So, I'll start: I'm a liberal, leftist democrat who is rooting for Bernie Sanders and hopes to volunteer for his campaign. I'm a fan of Sander's "Nordic Model", in terms of economic systems. I like Hilary, but she isn't left enough for me. But I will vote for her in the Presidential election, should she win the nomination. I don't like conservative politics, at all, but if I had to pick one Republican, I'd choose John Kasich. Actually, I'd pick Romney when he was governor of Massechusetts, but that man seems to have disappeared for good.

[saevel25]

[QUOTE name="jbishop15" url="/t/84108/general-politics-thread#post_1191304"] I don't like conservative politics, at all, but if I had to pick one Republican , I'd choose John Kasich. Actually, I'd pick Romney when he was governor of Massechusetts, but that man seems to have disappeared for good.[/QUOTE] Ok I can respect you now. :-D I like Kasich as well. He's very open minded on social issues. He does have his religious beliefs, but they are his and doesn't seem to want to impose those beliefs onto others.  I just think he's such a strange dude, very quirky personality, that he might have a hard time winning the republican primary. The major issue is the very strong religious republicans who want to be hard line on the social issues.  In terms of political stance. Economcy I am for more state power. The USA is such a diverse nation that the idea that general federal programs can cover and be sustainable at the local level is laughable. Each state has their own livability standards. NYC Is way more expensive than Ohio. I think trying to fit what other countries do, when they are typically the size of one of our states is a bad idea. This is why when people say, lets copy Germany or Japan it doesn't fit because we are basically the whole of Europe under one federal government.  Though in recent years I have been thinking that huge corporations are not a good thing. It's a problem when lower end worker wages become stagnant as inflation rises 3% per year. If your salary isn't raised 3% to match, lets say you don't get a raise in 5 years you now have to spend an extra 15% on basic needs. Something has to be done to ensure that at the base level of the economic spectrum the people are able to afford the basic needs. Things like gas, food, clothing, housing, health coverage should be linked to where you live and should be accountable in your take home pay. Social Issues I am very libertarian on this. I don't think people have the right to impose their beliefs onto others. I think the best laws are for civil liberties, not civil restrictions.  Other stuff i am not a big fan of alot of public jobs. I rather see alot of small businesses and things stay local as possible. In terms of health care, i believe in full coverage for emergency care and things like cancer. Im not a fan of pushing health care off on businesses. I think full tuition is fine. There has to be control on cost and teacher unions pushing to get people elected to give them unwarranted benefits. They need to gut alot of degrees that are pointless. They need to start introducing classes on being a sustainable person. Like how to balance a check book and stay out of debt. College right now is way too bloated to even think about full tuition coverage. Alot of students just waist the money on pointless degrees. I believe in the total overhaul of our federal regulations. Way too bloated. I guess that is good for now.

[Gator Hazard]

Just saw this in replies on an article.  Its funny and generic, can be used for either political party:

Two alligators were sitting around talking, and the smaller alligator turned to the bigger one & said, 'I can't understand how you can be so much bigger than me. We're the same age; we were the same size as kids. I just don't get it.'
'Well,' said the big gator, 'what have you been eating?'
'Democrats, same as you,' replied the small gator.
'Hmm. Well, where do you catch them?'
'Down the other side of the lake near the parking lot at the WalMart in Charlotte
'Same here. Hmm. How do you catch them?'
'Well, I crawl up under one of their cars & wait for one to unlock the car door. Then I jump out, grab them by the leg, shake the shit out of them and eat 'em! '
'Ah!' says the big alligator, 'I think I see your problem.. you're not getting any real nourishment. See, by the time you finish shaking the shit out of a Democrat, there's nothing left but a hole

[jbishop15]

Ok I can respect you now.

I like Kasich as well. He's very open minded on social issues. He does have his religious beliefs, but they are his and doesn't seem to want to impose those beliefs onto others.

I just think he's such a strange dude, very quirky personality, that he might have a hard time winning the republican primary. The major issue is the very strong religious republicans who want to be hard line on the social issues.

In terms of political stance.

Economcy

I am for more state power. The USA is such a diverse nation that the idea that general federal programs can cover and be sustainable at the local level is laughable. Each state has their own livability standards. NYC Is way more expensive than Ohio. I think trying to fit what other countries do, when they are typically the size of one of our states is a bad idea. This is why when people say, lets copy Germany or Japan it doesn't fit because we are basically the whole of Europe under one federal government.

Though in recent years I have been thinking that huge corporations are not a good thing. It's a problem when lower end worker wages become stagnant as inflation rises 3% per year. If your salary isn't raised 3% to match, lets say you don't get a raise in 5 years you now have to spend an extra 15% on basic needs. Something has to be done to ensure that at the base level of the economic spectrum the people are able to afford the basic needs. Things like gas, food, clothing, housing, health coverage should be linked to where you live and should be accountable in your take home pay.

Social Issues

I am very libertarian on this. I don't think people have the right to impose their beliefs onto others. I think the best laws are for civil liberties, not civil restrictions.

Other stuff

i am not a big fan of alot of public jobs. I rather see alot of small businesses and things stay local as possible. In terms of health care, i believe in full coverage for emergency care and things like cancer. Im not a fan of pushing health care off on businesses. I think full tuition is fine. There has to be control on cost and teacher unions pushing to get people elected to give them unwarranted benefits. They need to gut alot of degrees that are pointless. They need to start introducing classes on being a sustainable person. Like how to balance a check book and stay out of debt. College right now is way too bloated to even think about full tuition coverage. Alot of students just waist the money on pointless degrees. I believe in the total overhaul of our federal regulations. Way too bloated. I guess that is good for now.

I'm cool with all of your ideas, but I am a little further left on these.

- I think that minimum wage should either be A) brought up to $15 an hour, or B) the government subsidizes the minimum wage to make it $15. While I get the reasoning behind stapling the minimum wage to the quality of life you are living in, I think that by raising the MW equally everywhere you'll be able to create greater wealth in all areas.

- I'm a big, big believer in universal healthcare and universal education. ObamaCare has saved the US a lot of money, and insurance companies actually prefer it, because it guarantees payments that were spottier before. Universal education is a no-brainer for me; which people are the most likely to have disposable income to spend? The college-educated. So, you saddle them with thousands of dollars in debt, most of which they probably wont be able to pay back? That money is better spent in the private sector on goods and services.

- As far as social issues go: I am pro-choice, I believe in equal rights for LGBT individuals, and I think that African-Americans are disproportionally affected by police violence, as well as being arrested at a much higher rate. That means one of two things: either African-Americans are as a whole, on average, more criminalistic, or that the system is unfairly targeting them. I tend to think generalizing an entire group of people is a bad idea. I'm also very, very environmentally conscious.

- I am an atheist, but I am 100% in favor of protecting religious liberties, but NOT those that discriminate against others. For example: you cannot deny service to someone who is gay, or Muslim, because they are gay or Muslim. You treat people equally; that is the only way to make this world work the way it should.

- Last one, I promise: I'm anti-war, and I think our military budget should be trimmed, and that money used to further education or healthcare or literally anything else.

There you go! Now you know too much about me!

[saevel25]

I'm cool with all of your ideas, but I am a little further left on these.

- I think that minimum wage should either be A) brought up to $15 an hour, or B) the government subsidizes the minimum wage to make it $15. While I get the reasoning behind stapling the minimum wage to the quality of life you are living in, I think that by raising the MW equally everywhere you'll be able to create greater wealth in all areas.

I don't know. After seeing all the pictures of some McDonald's workers messing up simple orders, I wonder why they deserve $15 an hour. I think a better solution would be to try to do as much as possible to simplify the regulations and all the accounting BS that goes on to see if we can get lower prices on those goods. Basically, get stuff commonly needed for the lower end of the economic spectrum lower before raising minimum wage. In the end, the price of goods that are required for the lower end of the spectrum has raised a lot over the decades without a raise in minimum wage. Was that due to poor government regulation and laws as well as the feds manipulating inflation? If so then I think some of that can be reversed so you don't need to increase minimum wage as severely. If you just increase minimum wage then you will see a spike in all goods. Then you have to ask, well why was that even required if the goods I need are now more expensive?

- I'm a big, big believer in universal healthcare and universal education. ObamaCare has saved the US a lot of money, and insurance companies actually prefer it, because it guarantees payments that were spottier before. Universal education is a no-brainer for me; which people are the most likely to have disposable income to spend? The college-educated. So, you saddle them with thousands of dollars in debt, most of which they probably wont be able to pay back? That money is better spent in the private sector on goods and services.

Obamacare has saved money? You can really say that with a straight face? You tell that to the people who have to pay more on their premiums now. You tell that to the doctors who struggle to stay out of the red because the government undercuts them like they do with medicare.  Also the fact that the USA is heading towards a 30-40% obesity level in the next decade doesn't help.

Here's the issue with all these policies. THEY FIX NOTHING. They are a monetary band-aid that is going to blow up our economy. They are popular because they get you votes.  It doesn't fix the health of this nation. It doesn't fix the BS law suits against doctors from people who want to get paid off. It doesn't help the fact that the government likes to undercut doctors so they can tell the people they are saving money. It doesn't help that doctors can't pay off student loans due to massively increasing tuition. It doesn't help that the USA has one of the worst doctors to patient ratios and more and more people are not going to college to become doctors because there isn't money in it anymore.

I get they wanted to do something helpful, but it was poorly thought out. It was poorly constructed. It was poorly pushed through congress. Now we have to sit back and watch it belly flop.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for universal health care system if it is properly done. Seriously, do it right the first time. Don't sign a bill just because you want your name attached to it so you can say 20 years later, "Yea I signed into law the first national health care system in the USA."

- As far as social issues go: I am pro-choice, I believe in equal rights for LGBT individuals, and I think that African-Americans are disproportionally affected by police violence, as well as being arrested at a much higher rate. That means one of two things: either African-Americans are as a whole, on average, more criminalistic, or that the system is unfairly targeting them. I tend to think generalizing an entire group of people is a bad idea. I'm also very, very environmentally conscious.

I have no opinion on pro-choice because I am a male. I do not even want to be in the shoes of a female in poverty who gets pregnant who knows they can't afford to have a kid. That is one scary situation. So yea, I can see that side of it. Though I can see the side, hey that is a child that you just killed. Sorry, it's true. Even if you want to scientifically describe the being as a symbiotic relationship between the mother and the preborn being. Still in the end it's a living being. In the end, an abortion is killing a living organism. It's hard for me to look at my kid relatives and think that they could not be here if my aunt had an abortion. For me, as a male, it's tough to actually take a stance on this, and actually have it be influence my voting. That's why I don't tend to bring this into my thought process when voting.

For me, I think there should be some choice in it. Like if the life of the mother is in danger then the family gets to decide. My aunt came up with a good idea. Bring back state orphanages. Have the kid and give him up. I think it's a good compromise on the matter. If you are for Universal Healthcare and Universal Tuition then I don't see how you can not think this as a good option. Let the state take care of them. They can be added to the workforce in their teen years. They can go to school, and hopefully go to college.

As for the violence against blacks. I think it's tough because you have to consider the area in which it's happening. Inner city area has a different demographic and profile when it comes to minority violence and reaction by police. It's no coincidence that a lot of this violence is happening in big cities. I think that is an area people don't realize. They see these overall numbers, but don't break it down to an important component, location. If the violence against cops is very high in inner-city then it might be reasonable that the retaliation against the minorities would be high as well. Look at some of the violent crime numbers for certain cities. When you have a 1 in 7 chance of being a victim of a violent crime in a year. That is some scary stuff right there.

I think we can do more for the environment, but I am not on the global warming bandwagon. I just like the idea of not taking a sledge hammer to our only home in a big solar system ;)

- I am an atheist, but I am 100% in favor of protecting religious liberties, but NOT those that discriminate against others. For example: you cannot deny service to someone who is gay, or Muslim, because they are gay or Muslim. You treat people equally; that is the only way to make this world work the way it should.

This is where I differ from you a lot. You can not mandate a religion to go against their beliefs. That is strictly protected by the constitution. The US Government can not make a law establishing or prohibiting a religion.

So yes, the church it's self can deny a service the church would provide. Now, if you are talking about situations like a privately owned wedding cake business. That has no affiliation or is not owned by a religious organization, then yes discrimination laws apply.

In no way should a catholic church be required to allow marriages from couples who violate their religious principles. My cousin got married. She and her husband had to go through a marriage course with the priest before hand. If they didn't do the course, the priest would not marry them. Marriage is serious business in the catholic church. Even straight couples can be denied service.

If you are for religious liberties. Then you must respect the fact that Catholics have a right to deny services because you are not catholic or do not follow the catholic teachings. To say they should be required to grant you services because you demand equality is hypocritical because you are imposing your beliefs upon them in the manor in which you don't want them to do it to you.

Right now I am an Agnostic. I can not prove or disprove a God exists. Though I do believe in spirituality. I kinda like to mix and match religious beliefs. I do have a background in Catholicism, my family are Catholics. Though I tend to be much more new testament in terms of using the stories as good moral compass. I do like religions like Buddhism as well.

[Patch]

I don't like "career politicians" PERIOD. It does not matter what political party they represent, or which media outlet likes them the most. It also does not even matter to me which super mega rich person or persons' owns them. Career politicians are the major reason America is in the poor shape it is in today.

That's the very short version of political rant, and I can now leave this thread alone feeling quite well.

[RGoosen]

saevel25 & Patch I knew someone on this site had some sense in them. :)

[jbishop15]

I don't know. After seeing all the pictures of some McDonald's workers messing up simple orders, I wonder why they deserve $15 an hour. I think a better solution would be to try to do as much as possible to simplify the regulations and all the accounting BS that goes on to see if we can get lower prices on those goods. Basically, get stuff commonly needed for the lower end of the economic spectrum lower before raising minimum wage. In the end, the price of goods that are required for the lower end of the spectrum has raised a lot over the decades without a raise in minimum wage. Was that due to poor government regulation and laws as well as the feds manipulating inflation? If so then I think some of that can be reversed so you don't need to increase minimum wage as severely. If you just increase minimum wage then you will see a spike in all goods. Then you have to ask, well why was that even required if the goods I need are now more expensive?

It's not about whether they deserved it, at least for me. It's simply pragmatic; if they have money, they can spend it. I don't care whether they waste it or not. Our economy is better when it has money flowing through it.

Obamacare has saved money? You can really say that with a straight face? You tell that to the people who have to pay more on their premiums now. You tell that to the doctors who struggle to stay out of the red because the government undercuts them like they do with medicare.  Also the fact that the USA is heading towards a 30-40% obesity level in the next decade doesn't help.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/240971-obamacare-trial-program-saving-money-report-finds - there is a report about at least 400m being saved. I can find a lot more.

Originally Posted by saevel25

I have no opinion on pro-choice because I am a male. I do not even want to be in the shoes of a female in poverty who gets pregnant who knows they can't afford to have a kid. That is one scary situation. So yea, I can see that side of it. Though I can see the side, hey that is a child that you just killed. Sorry, it's true. Even if you want to scientifically describe the being as a symbiotic relationship between the mother and the preborn being. Still in the end it's a living being. In the end, an abortion is killing a living organism. It's hard for me to look at my kid relatives and think that they could not be here if my aunt had an abortion. For me, as a male, it's tough to actually take a stance on this, and actually have it be influence my voting. That's why I don't tend to bring this into my thought process when voting.

We're sort of on the same page. I have no interest in telling a woman what to do with her body, and that's where it ends for me.

Originally Posted by saevel25

For me, I think there should be some choice in it. Like if the life of the mother is in danger then the family gets to decide. My aunt came up with a good idea. Bring back state orphanages. Have the kid and give him up. I think it's a good compromise on the matter. If you are for Universal Healthcare and Universal Tuition then I don't see how you can not think this as a good option. Let the state take care of them. They can be added to the workforce in their teen years. They can go to school, and hopefully go to college.

As for the violence against blacks. I think it's tough because you have to consider the area in which it's happening. Inner city area has a different demographic and profile when it comes to minority violence and reaction by police. It's no coincidence that a lot of this violence is happening in big cities. I think that is an area people don't realize. They see these overall numbers, but don't break it down to an important component, location. If the violence against cops is very high in inner-city then it might be reasonable that the retaliation against the minorities would be high as well. Look at some of the violent crime numbers for certain cities. When you have a 1 in 7 chance of being a victim of a violent crime in a year. That is some scary stuff right there.

Violent crime has been trending downward for close to thirty years now, and yet African-Americans are still taking the brunt of the damage.

Originally Posted by saevel25

I think we can do more for the environment, but I am not on the global warming bandwagon. I just like the idea of not taking a sledge hammer to our only home in a big solar system ;)

I 100% believe in global warming/climate change; I think if we don't fix it, we're going to be in a world of hurt.

This is where I differ from you a lot. You can not mandate a religion to go against their beliefs. That is strictly protected by the constitution. The US Government can not make a law establishing or prohibiting a religion.

So yes, the church it's self can deny a service the church would provide. Now, if you are talking about situations like a privately owned wedding cake business. That has no affiliation or is not owned by a religious organization, then yes discrimination laws apply.

In no way should a catholic church be required to allow marriages from couples who violate their religious principles. My cousin got married. She and her husband had to go through a marriage course with the priest before hand. If they didn't do the course, the priest would not marry them. Marriage is serious business in the catholic church. Even straight couples can be denied service.

If you are for religious liberties. Then you must respect the fact that Catholics have a right to deny services because you are not catholic or do not follow the catholic teachings. To say they should be required to grant you services because you demand equality is hypocritical because you are imposing your beliefs upon them in the manor in which you don't want them to do it to you.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Phil McGleno]

I hate political threads. All they do is take a group of people who should celebrate having one thing in common-golf-and divide them and make them call each other names and hate each other. Occasional political topics are one thing. A thread for them is another. I will not be participating except to encourage others not to participate. - We already get enough negativity in our lives. Celebrate golf here at TST.

[jbishop15]

I hate political threads. All they do is take a group of people who should celebrate having one thing in common-golf-and divide them and make them call each other names and hate each other. Occasional political topics are one thing. A thread for them is another. I will not be participating except to encourage others not to participate. - We already get enough negativity in our lives. Celebrate golf here at TST.

That's fair. Totally understand. Definitely agree about celebrating golf.

[14ledo81]

I hate political threads. All they do is take a group of people who should celebrate having one thing in common-golf-and divide them and make them call each other names and hate each other. Occasional political topics are one thing. A thread for them is another. I will not be participating except to encourage others not to participate. - We already get enough negativity in our lives. Celebrate golf here at TST.

Agreed.

[Gator Hazard]

Fair point on the celebrating golf, and I truly am middle of the road on politics, I think that in general most people are when you boil it down to the core things people want from their government.  I understand that there are those who are not.

As far as minimum wage goes, I have friends on both ends of the political spectrum who think paying people $15 to wipe tables, press buttons with pictures on them, and pour coffee is way too much.  Many of these people speak from first hand experience of having done such.  Minimum wage needs to be brought up, I firmly believe that, and agree with that, but to almost double it overnight is wreckless and foolish.  Also it demotivates people to do better for themselves.  Lastly, economically those who are arguing that raising minimum wage like that will better everyones lives fail to understand the drivers of supply and demand.  Yes, in the short run those making $15 an hour do much better, but over time what happens is purchasing parity takes effect and the competition for a limited amount of goods and services creates an equilibrium where $15 an hour is as good as the $7.50 an hour that minimum wage used to be.  Thats just the way the economy works, so yes, for several years they benefit but then as the purchasing power of their dollars erode over time they become less capable of adjusting and live above their means and end up with the same argument of they don't make enough money.  I agree minimum wage should provide enough for a very basic living, and that people should have emergency care.  I do not believe that kids in high school should make enough money to seriously contemplate not finishing school or doing anything else to better themselves and should get married (or not get married) and have a few kids and expecto to make enough money to have everything be just grand.

Thats my two cents plus a little extra on minimum wage.

I agree with many social aspects, I fimly believe in the statement that "your rights end where mine begin" and that all people should be treated with respect and courtesy and without prejudice.

[jbishop15]

Fair point on the celebrating golf, and I truly am middle of the road on politics, I think that in general most people are when you boil it down to the core things people want from their government.  I understand that there are those who are not.

As far as minimum wage goes, I have friends on both ends of the political spectrum who think paying people $15 to wipe tables, press buttons with pictures on them, and pour coffee is way too much.  Many of these people speak from first hand experience of having done such.  Minimum wage needs to be brought up, I firmly believe that, and agree with that, but to almost double it overnight is wreckless and foolish.  Also it demotivates people to do better for themselves.  Lastly, economically those who are arguing that raising minimum wage like that will better everyones lives fail to understand the drivers of supply and demand.  Yes, in the short run those making $15 an hour do much better, but over time what happens is purchasing parity takes effect and the competition for a limited amount of goods and services creates an equilibrium where $15 an hour is as good as the $7.50 an hour that minimum wage used to be.  Thats just the way the economy works, so yes, for several years they benefit but then as the purchasing power of their dollars erode over time they become less capable of adjusting and live above their means and end up with the same argument of they don't make enough money.  I agree minimum wage should provide enough for a very basic living, and that people should have emergency care.  I do not believe that kids in high school should make enough money to seriously contemplate not finishing school or doing anything else to better themselves and should get married (or not get married) and have a few kids and expecto to make enough money to have everything be just grand.

Thats my two cents plus a little extra on minimum wage.

I agree with many social aspects, I fimly believe in the statement that "your rights end where mine begin" and that all people should be treated with respect and courtesy and without prejudice.

Reasonable. I don't think it should be jumped up overnight; I like the way Seattle is doing it, over about five years.

I don't want to mangle the arguments, so here are some links on the topic (this sounds condescending and I sincerely don't mean it that way).

http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/23/5-facts-about-the-minimum-wage

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/facts/

I will say, though, that I don't care if people decide they don't want to finish school or whatever. I don't think that's a realistic possibility, but even if it is, I simply want a better economy, and a way to do that is make sure that people have money to spend.

[Strandly]

I'm an independent and vote for whoever looks the least likely to screw the country.

[saevel25]

I will say, though, that I don't care if people decide they don't want to finish school or whatever. I don't think that's a realistic possibility, but even if it is, I simply want a better economy, and a way to do that is make sure that people have money to spend.

My only concern is money isn't just grown on trees, unless you are the federal government who likes to print themselves out of debt. Still, a lot of businesses have to work with small profit margins. If suddenly raise an expense by 50% then that is a something that could crush a business. For a business it's not just paying the person an extra 7.50 per hour. Really when an employer pays the minimum wage they are paying 7.5*(1.0765) = 8.07. So, if an employer pays 15.00 per hour they actually how $16.15 per hour. That's not including other things like mandating health care.

The current tax rate for Social Security is 6.2% for the employer and6.2% for the employee, or 12.4% total. The current rate for Medicare is1.45% for the employer and 1.45% for the employee, or 2.9%total.

Lets look at the fast food restaurant example. Profit margins for a fast food restaurant is about 3%. Wages and payroll is 26%. Let's say you double that because minimum wage doubles. I know not all employees are on minimum wage. So lets say you increase wages and payroll by 150%. So, $326226, that means the total expenses increase by 13.2%.

That means to maintain that 3%, they have to raise prices by 13.2% or cut 13.2% cost from elsewhere. Let's say the place employs 15 employees over two shifts. The wendy's I worked at had about 6-7 employees going at one time.

You could technically fire 2 employees and lower the expense by 13% as well. Just saying, for raising the minimum wage, you might have just cost 2 people their jobs.

[Gator Hazard]

I didn't find anything you sad or references you linked too condescending at all.  I agree with much of it, but none of those facts sheets are discussing or have seen what happens when the minimum wage is basically doubled in a short amount of time.  I know many small business owners (including one who owns three dunkin donuts franchises) who would become unprofitable if they maintained their current staff and had to pay $15 an hour in minimum wage plus benefits.  My discussion was not specifically about high school kids, I know that many people earn minimum wage.  That is what you should make for doing minimal skill positions, as they are supposed to be an entry into the labor force.  It is why I agree we should have a minimum wage, to stop businesses from exploiting underage labor and unskilled laborers.  That is where it should stop, when I got my first job it was at walmart in the southwest as a stock boy running out into the blistering heat and getting carts, stocking the stock room and shelves, etc.  It was hard work for the money, but it was an entry level job, I didn't even have a diploma but was able to get a pay raise and promotion, and then put on the cash register with another pay raise. I got my high school diploma and went for a better position that paid almost double what minimum wage is, I did it without a collee degree and without a white anglican last name on my resume.  The point is that I feel a lot of our society wants to be coddled and wants to be taken care of.  Like the paticipation trophys.  I am sorry, but giving everyone a trophy is exactly how we end up in debates over why minimally skilld laborers should make $15 an hour to to ask if you would like to make your meal a larger size.

[Patch]

On the minimum wage hike. I have read that in some of the cities that are phasing in $15 an hour, some of the workers have asked their employers to work them less hours per week, so that they can keep what ever subsidies they were getting in the first place. Their reasoning is that by losing their subsidies, they have to go pay for their own stuff,(subsidies) and they are winding up with less money than they had before pay hike. Their bosses are agreeing to do so, since it saves them money. Plus if needed, they can work more people less hours, and still make more profits.   As I recall, one of the big benefits of a higher minimum wage was to get folks off government subsidies. The other was to infuse more money into a poor economy. Working folks less hours is not doing it.

[phillyk]

You could technically fire 2 employees and lower the expense by 13% as well. Just saying, for raising the minimum wage, you might have just cost 2 people their jobs.

Wasn't it McDonalds that purchased automated registers, like 10,000 or something to replace workers because of the minimum wage increase?  I could see most fast food places doing this in the near future.  It is essentially firing those 2 employees and not losing anything from it.