Incident on the green

[mdl]

  AbsoluteTruths said:

I am not good enough yet to judge the yardage of all my clubs anywhere near accurately. So I am the one in the group in front of you who has my 3w in my hand not knowing

if it will go 10 yards or 200. I am erring on the side of caution and courtesy to not hit till I know for sure I will not hit or irritate anyone.

I am also surprised at the number of people on this thread that will get so upset about an accident.

What I'm talking about doesn't require you to know your distances well, or to have consistent distances.  You may not be sure whether your 3w will go 10 yards or 200.  But I bet you're damn sure it's not going to go 230 (assuming no big wind, flattish terrain, etc.).  If I'm playing behind a beginner or hacker who's keeping pace I'm not begrudging them not hitting 3w from 200 yards at all, even if we all know the chances of them actually hitting it that far on target are pretty small.  I'm begrudging the old guy who hits his driver 170-200 in the fairway 75% of the time, then sits at 210 with his 3w pretending he's 30 years younger and there's a greater than 0% he even rolls it weakly onto the front fringe.

[rkim291968]

  Fairway_CY said:

If you're waiting now, and you rush to hit up instead of waiting an extra few seconds... you're just gonna be waiting again anyway.

Absolutely!  There is no reason to take risk b/c there is no time saved for doing so.

Instead, I use the waiting time to do a few more pre-shot routine.   It's helping my score and I've learned to appreciate a little bit of waiting.   Without waiting, sometimes, I rush shots.

[Golfingdad]

  mdl said:

One note on the driveable par 4. The last thing we need is even more people waiting for groups to clear the green/fairway because they're ridiculous fantasy shot can reach because they think that's good etiquette. One of the most annoying pace of play things is when a player in front of you who hasn't carried a drive longer than 200 yards all day sits in the fairway 210 from the pin holding his 3w waiting for the green to clear. That's poor etiquette (slowing the pace of the course), not good etiquette (not "hitting into" the group in front of you).

I like you Matt, but I strongly disagree with this.  I've yet to have somebody explain to me the logic behind this being such a time killer.  I've said it 50 times before and I'll say it again.  It's only mathematically possible for this to slow down play ONE SINGLE TIME in a round.  Because if it happens a second time, then, well, it couldn't have slowed play down, now, could it have? ;)  And if it doesn't happen again, then I can guarantee you that it wasn't the waiting on that one hole that caused the problem ... it's just because they are slow players in general.

Why do people always insist that this slows play down?????

  AbsoluteTruths said:

I am also surprised at the number of people on this thread that will get so upset about an accident.

This is true.

[DrvFrShow]

It used to be painful for the other women in the club I played in when on a par 5 from a distance of 190 I'd wait for the green to clear because I could reach it with my hybrid. This sometimes meant waiting for the group on the green to putt and leave, and the group in front of us to hit onto the green and putt out. This would back up two groups behind us. Then I'd hit and usually end up somewhere in the green complex chipping up, or if lucky on the green and putting. Then they'd walk up and hit their third shots, then walk up and hit their 60 yd runners up onto the green and be ready to putt. These holes were usually followed with "we have to pick up the pace" comments directed at me.

One time they convinced me to hit while a group was on the green from that distance and Ianded it on the apron and rolled it up onto the green about 12' from the hole while someone was putting. With the looks I got from the group on the green, never again would I do that.

This left me with a dilemma.... do I play 5 irons + two 9 irons to the greens? Or do I just play in the afternoons with PUG? I chose the latter.

[Fairway_CY]

  Golfingdad said:

I like you Matt, but I strongly disagree with this.  I've yet to have somebody explain to me the logic behind this being such a time killer.  I've said it 50 times before and I'll say it again.  It's only mathematically possible for this to slow down play ONE SINGLE TIME in a round.  Because if it happens a second time, then, well, it couldn't have slowed play down, now, could it have? ;)  And if it doesn't happen again, then I can guarantee you that it wasn't the waiting on that one hole that caused the problem ... it's just because they are slow players in general.

Why do people always insist that this slows play down?????

This is true.

Agreed.  I'm one of those who hits it 230 from the fairway with my 3 wood once a year, if I'm lucky.  I average about 210 with it, when I make good contact.  More often than not, I top it and it goes 100 yards or less.  But, you can bet that if I'm at 240 to the pin and there's a group on the green, I'm going to wait (providing there is no reason for me to lay up such as a hazard or something).

Have I ever reached a green from 240?  No.  But I've been playing for 22+ years and I know that I have that 'every once in awhile' pure shot.  Hell... I once hit a 7 iron (which is usually my 150 yard club) from about 3 feet to the left of the 150 marker in the fairway and it flew over the green and over the pond sitting behind the green, which was an additional 30 yard carry... meaning I carried it about 195, which has never happened before or since, but... it COULD happen, so I'm going to wait.

CY

[mdl]

  Golfingdad said:

I like you Matt, but I strongly disagree with this.  I've yet to have somebody explain to me the logic behind this being such a time killer.  I've said it 50 times before and I'll say it again.  It's only mathematically possible for this to slow down play ONE SINGLE TIME in a round.  Because if it happens a second time, then, well, it couldn't have slowed play down, now, could it have? ;)  And if it doesn't happen again, then I can guarantee you that it wasn't the waiting on that one hole that caused the problem ... it's just because they are slow players in general.

Why do people always insist that this slows play down?????

I like you too Drew

I see your point.  And it's probably true that at least a portion of my annoyance about this is just because it's a particularly obvious, easily visible annoyance related to pace of play that can get to me when people in general are playing too slowly and I'm already annoyed about it.

But I disagree with your analysis at least in part.  The problem is if this practice is widespread.  If many groups are doing this, then there are many groups on the course maintaining an extra 3-5 minute (time it takes the green to clear from when this waiting starts?) gap between them and the group in front.  If enough groups are doing this it's spreading everyone out and making the whole course much slower overall.

[mdl]

  Fairway_CY said:

Agreed.  I'm one of those who hits it 230 from the fairway with my 3 wood once a year, if I'm lucky.  I average about 210 with it, when I make good contact.  More often than not, I top it and it goes 100 yards or less.  But, you can bet that if I'm at 240 to the pin and there's a group on the green, I'm going to wait (providing there is no reason for me to lay up such as a hazard or something).

Have I ever reached a green from 240?  No.  But I've been playing for 22+ years and I know that I have that 'every once in awhile' pure shot.  Hell... I once hit a 7 iron (which is usually my 150 yard club) from about 3 feet to the left of the 150 marker in the fairway and it flew over the green and over the pond sitting behind the green, which was an additional 30 yard carry... meaning I carried it about 195, which has never happened before or since, but... it COULD happen, so I'm going to wait.

CY

I think this is plain silly.  You won't hit when the group in front is 10 yards past your once a year best distance?  I find it ridiculous to hold up play because a freak occurrence is not physically impossible and there's a (barely) non-zero chance you could roll one up 10 yards behind the group in front.  I mean, the chance that you bounce one off a sprinkler head or cart path and get the ball to the group in front on a hard bounce is wildly higher, yet you don't wait until the group in front is completely out of freak bounce range, do you?

I have, once or twice, absolutely crushed my driver into a hard fairway, gotten a crazy good bounce, and rolled it out to 320.  So you're saying I shouldn't tee off if a group in front is at 330?  I do that every single time without question (assuming we're talking stock conditions, no big tailwind or downhill, etc).  And I've never even come close to rolling on up on a group at 330.  Not even close.  Ever.  And the "worst" that could have ever happened is that I carry one 60 yards behind them and roll it up to 10 yards behind them.  Disaster.

[Golfingdad]

  mdl said:

So you're saying I shouldn't tee off if a group in front is at 330?  I do that every single time without question (assuming we're talking stock conditions, no big tailwind or downhill, etc).  And I've never even come close to rolling on up on a group at 330.  Not even close.  Ever.  And the "worst" that could have ever happened is that I carry one 60 yards behind them and roll it up to 10 yards behind them.  Disaster.

But look at it from the flip side ... what are you gaining by teeing off at that point?  One of two things is likely happening:

1. They are waiting for the green to clear to hit their approaches.  And they're 330 out because they are either long hitters or perhaps really short hitters who got there in 2.  Either way, there is a group on the green and they are in the fairway.
2. Or also likely is that the group is moving because all of the guys have already hit their approaches and maybe one of them flubbed his and has to hit again.

In scenario 1, you're gaining absolutely nothing by not waiting because all that is going to happen is you sit in the fairway longer waiting for the green to clear after both groups ahead of you have to get through it.  It's even possible that you're worsening the logjam at that point because the group behind you sees you tee off and they speed up to get to the tee.  Now there are 4 groups all sitting on the par 4 together?  Oy.

In scenario 2, the easy answer is that its likely that the other guys in your group are shorter hitters, or at least one or two of them is, and they can certainly tee off now, and then when it becomes your turn, that guy is probably out of your way anyway.  Even if all 4 of you wait, you will still be able to hit 4 drives and get to your balls before a foursome ahead of you finishes approaching, chipping, raking bunkers, putting, and walking off the green.

[14ledo81]

@mdl A golf ball could kill someone. Way better to play it safe. Think how bad you would feel if you did hit the drive of your life, and it caused serious damage.

[rkim291968]

  14ledo81 said:

@mdl

A golf ball could kill someone. Way better to play it safe.

Think how bad you would feel if you did hit the drive of your life, and it caused serious damage.

Bingo.   Once, my wife was hit by a golf ball.  It was an indirect hit (hit a tree first, and ball dropped on my wife's thigh area) but she was in a lot of pain when she got hit.  The guy felt so bad that he couldn't continue with the round, and left after apologizing.    I was hit twice and one of those two were a rather painful experience.

[mdl]

  Golfingdad said:

But look at it from the flip side ... what are you gaining by teeing off at that point?

I stick with my counter-argument from above.  If everyone on the course prioritizes keeping tight up against the group in front, the whole course will move significantly faster.  There are what, 30-40 groups on a full course?  So even if such prioritization of staying tight only closes 30 seconds of gap between each group on average, that's 15-20 minutes faster overall.

In most particular examples of things that hold up play, you can make a counter-argument based on the supposed fact that you'll just wait later and no pace will be gained overall.  But if everyone's prioritizing I submit that the total effect would be significantly faster pace.

But just to make clear, I very much understand this is NOT the largest contributor to slow pace of play!  It just makes sense to me as part of an overall mindset of prioritizing efficiency and pace.

[Golfingdad]

  mdl said:

I stick with my counter-argument from above.  If everyone on the course prioritizes keeping tight up against the group in front, the whole course will move significantly faster.  There are what, 30-40 groups on a full course?  So even if such prioritization of staying tight only closes 30 seconds of gap between each group on average, that's 15-20 minutes faster overall.

In most particular examples of things that hold up play, you can make a counter-argument based on the supposed fact that you'll just wait later and no pace will be gained overall.  But if everyone's prioritizing I submit that the total effect would be significantly faster pace.

But just to make clear, I very much understand this is NOT the largest contributor to slow pace of play!  It just makes sense to me as part of an overall mindset of prioritizing efficiency and pace.

You can prioritize playing fast AND still wait until groups are out of your perfect shot range and never hold up anybody on the course.  It's as simple as that.

You say its not the largest contributor to slow play and I say it isn't even a contributor AT ALL.

[rkim291968]

  mdl said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But look at it from the flip side ... what are you gaining by teeing off at that point?

I stick with my counter-argument from above.  If everyone on the course prioritizes keeping tight up against the group in front, the whole course will move significantly faster.  There are what, 30-40 groups on a full course?  So even if such prioritization of staying tight only closes 30 seconds of gap between each group on average, that's 15-20 minutes faster overall.

In most particular examples of things that hold up play, you can make a counter-argument based on the supposed fact that you'll just wait later and no pace will be gained overall.  But if everyone's prioritizing I submit that the total effect would be significantly faster pace.

But just to make clear, I very much understand this is NOT the largest contributor to slow pace of play!  It just makes sense to me as part of an overall mindset of prioritizing efficiency and pace.

I think the point @Golfingdad is making (and I agree) is that "this" contributes to very little to the pace of play, if at all.     For people waiting, it feels like it is contributing to a slower pace but it does not.   Keeping tight up against the group in front don't mean much.   The front group just have to move fast enough to keep pace with its front group, and so on.

[Fairway_CY]

  mdl said:

I find it ridiculous to hold up play because a freak occurrence is not physically impossible and there's a (barely) non-zero...

I see your point, but... if I'm on the tails of the group in front of me all day long, waiting isn't going to hurt me, whereas IF I were to catch one on the screws and hit into them, it COULD hurt one of them.  Plus... you mention keeping the gap as small as possible on the course, but I liken that to people who feel the same way on the highway.  You hitting 10 yards short of me consistently all day is just making you have to wait on EVERY shot.  You aren't going anywhere... just like the people on a packed highway aren't going anywhere but decide to ride the bumper of the people in front of them.

Ultimately, they are putting themselves and others on the road in danger for the sake of getting somewhere SECONDS faster than if they left a safer gap between their car and the car ahead of them.  Just like I'd be getting back to the clubhouse SECONDS faster if I'm playing up to 10 yards short of the group ahead of me instead of waiting until they're safely and SURELY out of range.

Just my opinion.  I've waited a LOT of times for greens to clear and then I've topped my shot 30 yards, but... even if I didn't wait and topped that shot... now I'm 30 yards closer and I've DEFINITELY got to wait now, so... why not just wait anyway?

*shrug*

CY

[Golfingdad]

  Fairway_CY said:

You aren't going anywhere... just like the people on a packed highway aren't going anywhere but decide to ride the bumper of the people in front of them.

Ultimately, they are putting themselves and others on the road in danger for the sake of getting somewhere SECONDS faster than if they left a safer gap between their car and the car ahead of them.  Just like I'd be getting back to the clubhouse SECONDS faster if I'm playing up to 10 yards short of the group ahead of me instead of waiting until they're safely and SURELY out of range.

Was going to make almost this exact same analogy.  Hugging the car in front too tight and stopping and going with brake lights on and off and on and off actually slows the traffic behind you down more than it does anything.  Sure as hell doesn't speed up the pace of the whole road.

[mdl]

Fair enough.  I guess we'll agree to disagree in theory, and I'll agree with you all that in practice, given I can't change the outlook of everyone on the course at once, that whether the one guy in front of me consistently drags a minute or two farther behind the group in front of him than he theoretically could means nothing for me.  Maybe I finish 60 seconds later at worst.

But I will stick to my guns theoretically.  If everyone stayed tight the whole course could move at the pace of the front group.  Then one marshall riding the first tee time of the day hard and the course plays 3:30.  Magic!

And I don't agree with @Fairway_CY I've seen some traffic simulations, and if I remember correctly it's actually true that if everyone drove closer together and maintained speed then traffic would move faster and there's be fewer jams.  It's just that in real life it's not safe to drive 75mph two car lengths behind someone (until the robots are driving of course...)!  But on the golf course we can maintain the exact same pace of play while absolutely minimizing the gap between us and the group in front of us.  So if we could just all do this all at once!

And we're back to the problem of collective action...

[mdl]

  14ledo81 said:

@mdl

A golf ball could kill someone. Way better to play it safe.

Think how bad you would feel if you did hit the drive of your life, and it caused serious damage.

I agree.  My point is just that hitting when there's a 10e-6% chance that my shot could slowly roll up and settle resting against someone's shoe after I just outdid my best ever shot with that club by 5-10%, and there's a 0% chance that the ball could reach the group in front of me traveling faster than 1mph, I consider that playing it safe!

And I don't mean to minimize the danger of the golf ball.  Once playing with my little brother he took his typical mighty hack, pushed a drive about 45˚ left (he's a lefty), and broke the wrist of a woman sitting in her cart up the hill next to a different green, maybe 60 yards away.  My point is just that I definitely don't minimize the possible risk.  I'm just arguing that in the case we're talking about there is zero risk.

[Fairway_CY]

  mdl said:

Fair enough.  I guess we'll agree to disagree in theory, and I'll agree with you all that in practice, given I can't change the outlook of everyone on the course at once, that whether the one guy in front of me consistently drags a minute or two farther behind the group in front of him than he theoretically could means nothing for me.  Maybe I finish 60 seconds later at worst.

But I will stick to my guns theoretically.  If everyone stayed tight the whole course could move at the pace of the front group.  Then one marshall riding the first tee time of the day hard and the course plays 3:30.  Magic!

And I don't agree with @Fairway_CY's car analogy.  I've seen some traffic simulations, and if I remember correctly it's actually true that if everyone drove closer together and maintained speed then traffic would move faster and there's be fewer jams.  It's just that in real life it's not safe to drive 75mph two car lengths behind someone (until the robots are driving of course...)!  But on the golf course we can maintain the exact same pace of play while absolutely minimizing the gap between us and the group in front of us.  So if we could just all do this all at once!

And we're back to the problem of collective action...

Absolutely... if theory were put to practice, everything would run much smoother!  But... all it takes is one person to be the cog in the wheel (spending more time talking than playing, driving like a maniac, etc) and it's all backed up.



CY