Gun Laws

[Jeremie Boop]

It always confuses me when people push for gun restrictions after something like this. It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. You don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, you don't blame the knife when someone gets stabbed, but you blame guns when someone shoots someone. Put the blame where it belongs, on the person and not the object. There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

[Golfingdad]

It always confuses me when people push for gun restrictions after something like this. It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. You don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, you don't blame the knife when someone gets stabbed, but you blame guns when someone shoots someone. Put the blame where it belongs, on the person and not the object. There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/10/05/3708937/7-people-who-falsely-claimed-that-umpqua-community-college-is-a-gun-free-zone/

This Oregon school was not a gun free zone.  Also, to you and the rest who say that gun control is not the answer, perhaps you are right, but it's very much worth pointing out that the evidence suggests otherwise.  Other countries that have had problems with gun massacres have enacted stricter gun laws and then subsequently have had less or no gun massacres.  Maybe it's a coincidence, but how do we know unless we try and find out?

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-simple-truth-about-gun-control

 

 

 

[Pretzel]

It always confuses me when people push for gun restrictions after something like this. It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. You don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, you don't blame the knife when someone gets stabbed, but you blame guns when someone shoots someone. Put the blame where it belongs, on the person and not the object. There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

To be fair, it isn't a perfect analogy since a gun's only real purpose is as a weapon. A car can provide transportation, a knife can be a very useful tool, but people don't see the uses for guns besides shooting people. To be entirely fair, a gun doesn't have a huge variety of use besides shooting various things. 

I'm not saying that it's not a good point, just that it's not quite as simple. Stuff like knives or cars can't really be restricted due to how vital they are in today's society, while guns are not quite vital to modern society. The problem with that analogy is that it oversimplifies.

I agree the person, not the gun, is the problem, but the solution is preventing a person like that from accessing the gun or to educate the person in safe handling of a firearm. This solution, unfortunately, is not one that would be easy to implement or even easy to create, just because of all the unknowns and variables involved. It's a tricky problem with no clear answer, though I personally feel that education should be more widespread (maybe include hunter's safety education in the required middle school physical education curriculum that already exists?).

Edited October 5, 2015 by Pretzel

[saevel25]

 

I don't think tighter gun laws will solve anything. It's my opinion that the bad guys will continue to be able to get guns, no matter what controls are put in place. 

Depends on where you are at. If you have a guy who is invading your home they are not looking for a gun fight. They are going in and out as fast as possible. If you are talking an inner city or an area with high violent crimes then things become different. 
 

Protecting ones self is a GOD given right.

Where does it say God gives you a right to protect yourself? I never heard that teaching at my Catholic Grade School. No, it's your human choice to protect yourself. It's not God given. God didn't say "go forth and protect thy self for it is by God's will." In the end you can choose to protect yourself or not. You can choose to be a total pacifist and not do any harm. It's a human choice. Don't say God gives you the right to own guns. That is total BS. You choose to own a gun. 
 

This is the real issue. The shooting was stopped when good guys with guns showed up. That guy that heroically charged the gunman with his bare hands would have ended that shooting immediately if he was armed. You can't have a country with guns and then restrict where you can have them. That gives life and death advantage to the bad guys, the "radicals." 

Yet it didn't prevent the shootings from happening. Would the guy have stopped him? Would he be able to take a life? Would he have gotten off a shot? Would he have hit the person? You can not make that assertion he would have stopped the guy. You could say he might have, but to say the shooting would not have happened if someone was armed is just a stupid generalization to support the use of guns. 

This wasn't a shooter who bought his guns illegally. This wasn't some criminal who didn't want to have his guns registered because he was committing a crime. This is a guy who mentally snapped and shot up his classmates. The guy was enrolled that college. He was attending the college for English and Theater and he shot up an English class. 

There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

First, a Gun Free Zone will not stop a deranged person who has access to a gun legally from walking into that zone and shooting up the place. Those signs are really stupid. Also, I doubt the reason why the person in Oregon shot up the college was due to the fact it was a Gun Free Zone. It sounds like he was mentally disturbed and probably associated his anger to his classmates or the college. 

---

In the end I would like to see psychiatric tests for anyone who wants to get a gun. If you have family members in the house then they need to have psychiatric as well. I would like to see more required classes on using a gun. There needs to be very strict laws against those who sell guns illegally. Every gun should be able to be traced back to the seller. If you sold a gun illegally and it was used to kill someone then you are negligent in that person's death.

 Also there should be limits on the buying of automatic style guns. I don't mind people protecting themselves. 

[Silent]

This is the real issue. The shooting was stopped when good guys with guns showed up. That guy that heroically charged the gunman with his bare hands would have ended that shooting immediately if he was armed. You can't have a country with guns and then restrict where you can have them. That gives life and death advantage to the bad guys, the "radicals." 

Also, as David said, I am thankful to live in a country with the right to protect my family from criminals. Force wins every time. A country where the only firepower lies in the hands of the government is concerning to me. Who is there to check the government? North Koreans can't have guns, how does that work out for them? The American Revolution occurred because guys with guns were able to stand up do a corrupt government. 

True, but that really is an American way of looking at it. And I really don't mean that as an offence, I don't know how else to explain it. You're focussing on 'hey, we need to defend ourselves from people with guns, so let's bring in more guns', while instead you should focus on (in my opinion) the solution of preventing people (like that) to obtain guns in the first place. Wouldn't that save even more lives? You honestly believe that 'hey, let's bring more guns into society' is making it saver for people in general. You point to North Korea, but wouldn't it be more fair to compare USA to other western society's who do have stricter gun laws? 

 

Or let me ask you this. Why do you think school shooting happen pretty much on a regular basis, while in other western / modern society's they pretty much don't happen at all. You'll have to look for them with a magnifying glass to find them, while in the USA you just have to open the newspaper (figure of speech). Why? You really believe that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact it's much more easy to get a gun compared to most other western country's? It's completely unrelated to your gun laws? In fact, you're saying with stricter gun laws it would happen even more because you can't defend yourself? If have a very hard time believing that...

[sirhacksalot]

I am pro gun, and am a ccw license holder.  This banter happens because of tragedies.  When cars start blowing up or flipping over there there are recalls or speed limits put in place etc.  Having a little stricter laws on getting guns and ammo would not be the worst tihing in the world.  It would be nice tho if Gun training would be put back in schools and available for free to get CCW's etc. Awareness is key.  I don't know if there is a right or wrong way to handle the aftermath of these events.  However mounting any soap box arguing merits of pro vs anti gun instead of condolences and out reach for the familys by any Pres or politician is a tragedy in itself.  These events should not be political.

Glorifying the perpetrators in the public's eye doesn't help either.

On a personal note.  Once small children entered our house my wife was uneasy about the guns.  We both used to carry daily  Honestly its is almost a relief because when i did carry i felt that i had a responsibility to protect those around me not just mine.  And I cant whole heartedly do so knowing that i could be putting my own family at risk protecting someone else.

[imsys0042]

It always confuses me when people push for gun restrictions after something like this. It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. You don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, you don't blame the knife when someone gets stabbed, but you blame guns when someone shoots someone. Put the blame where it belongs, on the person and not the object. There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

But those arguments are not a 1-2-1 match.   And making analogies usually doesn't line up.   Both a gun and a car are tools that are used for specific and different tasks.   Any household poison, many hand tools and other common articles can be used to inflict harm on people.   guns have no other function than to shoot bullets.   A car has other uses than being used as a potential weapon (intended or unintended like a drunk driver).   A car is also more regulated and requires more effort by someone to own it, in some parts of the country.   The same counter-argument would work for knives, although knives certainly have no place outside the home unless you are using it for camping, or what it's intended for for cutting things (not people!).   The point being that a gun has a single use and anything else cited has other, more primary uses.

 

[Mr. Desmond]

I am pro gun, and am a ccw license holder.  This banter happens because of tragedies.  When cars start blowing up or flipping over there there are recalls or speed limits put in place etc.  Having a little stricter laws on getting guns and ammo would not be the worst tihing in the world.  It would be nice tho if Gun training would be put back in schools and available for free to get CCW's etc. Awareness is key.  I don't know if there is a right or wrong way to handle the aftermath of these events.  However mounting any soap box arguing merits of pro vs anti gun instead of condolences and out reach for the familys by any Pres or politician is a tragedy in itself.  These events should not be political.

Glorifying the perpetrators in the public's eye doesn't help either.

On a personal note.  Once small children entered our house my wife was uneasy about the guns.  We both used to carry daily  Honestly its is almost a relief because when i did carry i felt that i had a responsibility to protect those around me not just mine.  And I cant whole heartedly do so knowing that i could be putting my own family at risk protecting someone else.

I disagree on one point --- it is about politics or we would have common sense solutions with gunmakers, NRA, Congress, and the President working together to attempt to resolve the issues in a comprehensive manner.

That's the reason the President appears PO'd about this -- how many times must we hear about mentally ill lunatics shooting up a church or school, or a recruiting station, a theater -- places where people typically are defenselless -before we at least address potential solutions -- not just gun restrictions for loonies and violent criminals, but added security, education, and parents taking charge of their children.

 

I believe they did attempt to downplay the gunman's ID ... but the media is the media.

[imsys0042]

A note about Gun Free Zones as well.   Oregon is a state that does not prohibit licensed gun owners to carry concealed weapons on that type of campus.   It was really not a gun free zone.   The school limited weapons as far as it could under the law, but it was not allowed to completely ban them.

 

There was a man John Parker Jr. who was a contractor there and he was wearing a concealed weapon when it incident happened.   He stated that he believes there were other students with weapons and that by the time he realized what was happening, the police were already there.

[Kenny Lee]

Fact- killing people is illegal. However, this doesn't stop people from killing.

If guns were illegal, would it really stop the bad guys? Wouldn't they just obtain a gun illegally, and kill anyway? Clearly these types of people have no regard for the law.

Drugs are illegal too, by the way. How's that working out as far as eliminating drugs?

[Jeremie Boop]

I was curious about how often legally purchased firearms are used in violent crimes by the owner so I did a quick search. It's possible this one isn't super accurate but I found it interesting.

http://extranosalley.com/?p=30635

February 2, 2015 Update In an update to cover the decline in crime and criminal gun use since this was posted: The 2013 National Crime Victimize Survey report there were almost exactly 300,000 crimes, including murders, facilitated with a firearm.

Of those, not more than 5,000 can be shown to have been facilitated with a firearm legally purchased by the offender.

 I'm sure things could be found supporting each side though, just something I found really quickly and thought it would aid in the discussion. Also this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-gun-sales-soar-gun-crimes-plummet/

I also left out the word "most" in my previous reply in regards to gun free zones being the target of these attacks. I don't really have a problem with the idea of making sure guns don't legally end up in the hands of potential criminals, but the reality is that most of the time they don't get the guns legally to begin with.

[Gator Hazard]

 

---

In the end I would like to see psychiatric tests for anyone who wants to get a gun. If you have family members in the house then they need to have psychiatric as well. I would like to see more required classes on using a gun. There needs to be very strict laws against those who sell guns illegally. Every gun should be able to be traced back to the seller. If you sold a gun illegally and it was used to kill someone then you are negligent in that person's death.

 Also there should be limits on the buying of automatic style guns. I don't mind people protecting themselves. 

 

I pretty much agree.  No amount of training, gun education or gun safety classes are going to stop a deranged person with an agenda from shooting and killing people.  This person probably handled the weapon quite well.  

I think one of the most difficult things is that people can go from being completely sane to having a psychotic episode.  There are so many psychopaths that can hold it together when they need too.  Serial killers are psychotic, they are also usually educated, and integrate into society well, ala Ted Bundy.  One other issue is that if you look at the imaging of the active brain areas of a normal person, a psychopath, and a teenager, guess what the teenagers brain imaging more closely resembles?  Teenagers and adolescents going through hormonal changes don't make the most rational decisions.  Throw in some Xanax, Aderal, and Prozac, mix with parents who are not parenting at levels they should be because they are too busy as one example and then maybe even the removal of the drugs and who knows how anyone is going to respond.  

Stopping mass shootings is going to eventually come down to what are the best ways to 1) prevent and 2) deal with as it occurs.  As has been discussed I think more metal scanners at easy picking places such as movie theaters is a good idea.  Unfortunately dealing with them as they occur and what is the best way is more tricky.  I don't know what that looks like and it may be very messy, such as allowing CCW by designated trained individuals like the marshalls on airplanes.  I think it is safe to say that at least at schools this would be useful as we see more shootings at schools than other places, followed by churches and movie theaters.  

Edited October 5, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[imsys0042]

Fact- killing people is illegal. However, this doesn't stop people from killing.

If guns were illegal, would it really stop the bad guys? Wouldn't they just obtain a gun illegally, and kill anyway? Clearly these types of people have no regard for the law.

Drugs are illegal too, by the way. How's that working out as far as eliminating drugs?

Many mass shootings are not by determined criminals, but by disturbed people.   You probably cannot stop someone who is a career criminal and has channels to get illegal guns, however you can make it harder for people who are violent, ill or very angry about something and have no such criminal knowledge to draw on.

You'll never eliminate guns, drugs, hatred, racism or anything in the world.   But you can take the right steps to dramatically decrease how often they happen.

[Elmer]

It always confuses me when people push for gun restrictions after something like this. It's not a gun problem, it's a people problem. You don't blame the car when a drunk driver kills someone, you don't blame the knife when someone gets stabbed, but you blame guns when someone shoots someone. Put the blame where it belongs, on the person and not the object. There's probably a reason why these shootings happen in gun free zones, like they know they'll be able to do a lot of damage before they can be stopped.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

I realize nothing I say or type will change anyone's mind regarding guns and ownership of them.

Cars are regulate, Sports are regulated, food is regulated. Abortion is regulated!!!!!
But dont dare regulate my guns!

 what baffles me is that when a class room of children killed in quick succession gun owners or people of a certain political thought all want to say it is a mental health issue, not guns.
I am baffled at the refusal to acknowledge in the slightest that guns make killing, quicker and more efficient.
Sure you could kill with a knife by how many before you are over powered?
Nope, not the guns! So they refuse to even entertain the notion as the bodies pile up. 

I have an acquaintance , who after the Sandy Hook shooting complained about Liberals and went and joined the NRA and bought alot of semi automatics. Which I though was poor reaction to the death of children.

I have said this before, 
Guns dont kill, people kill. But guns help up the body count quickly!

So we have no problem debating abortion, but guns. Hands off my guns. A bunch of slave owning white guys said -God said you have a right to have guns, so debate over.

And finally can we stop with the misconception that "good people with guns stop bad people with guns"?
As my Purple Heart FIL will tell you. When the bullets start flying it is tough to return accurate fire. There is a misconception that when a bad guy with a guy shoots another gun owner will turn into Dirty Harry.
I think they are more likely to wet themselves!

Edited October 5, 2015 by Elmer
No edits

[Braivo]

While tragic and unexpected, mass shootings account for, on average, less than 100 deaths in American each year. About that many people die each day in automobile accidents. More than 30% of those are drunk-driving related. Therefore, roughly 30 people die each day as a result of alcohol related traffic accidents. I don't hear anyone arguing for tighter alcohol laws, or even a ban on alcohol, do I? 

[Gator Hazard]

I realize nothing I say or type will change anyone's mind regarding guns and ownership of them.

Cars are regulate, Sports are regulated, food is regulated.But dont dare regulate my guns!

 what baffles me is that when a class room of children killed in quick succession gun owners or people of a certain political thought all want to say it is a mental health issue, not guns.
I am baffled at the refusal to acknowledge in the slightest that guns make killing, quicker and more efficient.
Sure you could kill with a knife by how many before you are over powered?
Nope, not the guns! So they refuse to even entertain the notion as the bodies pile up. 

I have an acquaintance , who after the Sandy Hook shooting complained about Liberals and went and joined the NRA and bought alot of semi automatics. Which I though was poor reaction to the death of children.

I have said this before, 
Guns dont kill, people kill. But guns help up the body count quickly!

So we have no problem debating abortion, but guns. Hands off my guns. A bunch of slave owning white guys said -God said you have a right to have guns, so debate over.

And finally can we stop with the misconception that "good people with guns stop bad people with guns"?
As my Purple Heart FIL will tell you. When the bullets start flying it is tough to return accurate fire. There is a misconception that when a bad guy with a guy shoots another gun owner will turn into Dirty Harry.
I think they are more likely to wet themselves!

Guns are regulated, people are regulated as to what type of gun they can own, where they can carry it, transport it, if they can carry it transport it, etc.  I cannot go to the pawn shop and pick up an AK-47 or an M60.  I cannot buy a new clip that holds more than 10 rounds, I cannot buy bullets that will pierce body armor etc.  

I agree with you as well, guns are, sadly, a very efficient vehicle to kill with.  I wonder what happens when they are gone, so, lets say the crazy person cannot get them, they still have the hatred and the objective.  Do they just kill a few people or do they find ways to kill en mass still; either through homemade bombs, gasses/poisoning, etc?  

Part of me wonders if it is not just that we have a lot of guns in our society but we also have a society full of massive pressure, long work hours, work and performance stresses, overworked parents and parent stresses, not enough vacation, lots and lots of companies telling people take this pill and it will be okay.....there are so many factors.  I am not saying that is all of it, but I think America does have to take notice of how different work life balance and life is in other developed countries.  

There have been several noted instances of good people stopping bad people with guns, it is not a cure all and I understand your point but it does and can happen.  One of my worries about everyone carrying is that so okay, a shooter starts shooting.  Multiple CCW people begin to respond, and at different times.  Do they all know who the shooter is?  Or will they maybe shoot another CCW holder and innocents in the mayhem that ensues?

[imsys0042]

@Elmer -  I won't quote the whole post, but just a good point to make about this, or any topic really.   The rhetoric can be bad on both sides of any issue.   With such high levels of rhetoric and venom that can happen, people naturally get defensive and they dig in.   On this issue, guns, I have really strong opinions and worries about them.   However I know a number of very normal, stable and responsible people who have a 100% differing view and that makes me want to discuss it logically and dispassionately, even though I feel quite passionate about it.

Here is a link to a 1999 speech by the head of the NRA.   While I disagree completely with some of the points, there is room in this discussion for agreement and it sounds very different to what is said today, 16 years later.   Because the rhetoric and emotions are much higher.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000312035941/http:/nrahq.com/transcripts/denver_wlp.shtml

 

That is a very different tone and sound that what comes today.   :(

As a side note, I have to say that the level of discussion on this site is really, really good.   I was quite interested in the thread on the Solheim Cup and the controversy here.   It's a good community here.   Seeing the comments on the golf sites and what was said about the people involved there was horrible.   And talk like that just gets people riled up to the point where they won't concede any point...

[Braivo]

Part of me wonders if it is not just that we have a lot of guns in our society but we also have a society full of massive pressure, long work hours, work and performance stresses, overworked parents and parent stresses, not enough vacation, lots and lots of companies telling people take this pill and it will be okay.....there are so many factors.  I am not saying that is all of it, but I think America does have to take notice of how different work life balance and life is in other developed countries.  

This ^^^^