Share your New Strokes Gained Data from GAME Golf!

[saevel25]

45 minutes ago, MattM said:

Sure enough....The short game is killing me!!!!

Off the tee + approach = long game = 5.40 > short game ;) 

Yes, short game could be something you could cut down pretty quickly. 

[Dave2512]

Still think the GG SG stats are flawed. Seems to be a disconnect for higher handicap golfers between the driving approach and short game stats. Like it's looking at each category individually instead of determining if poor performance in one leads to poor performance in another down the line.

Higher handicap golfers don't scramble well because they hit poor drives that lead to poor approaches than lead to difficult up and downs. The takeaway shouldn't be improve short game it should be hit better approaches and it starts on the tee.

[MattM]

I guess my question would be if it is just saying that I could gain strokes off the tee because I'm only about 45% in the fairways.  I typically don't hit the ball out of bounds or directly behind a tree, but even though I have a clean approach shot to the green it might be still hurting my off the tee numbers just because of the lack of fairways? I could be wrong there too...

[dsc123]

23 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

Still think the GG SG stats are flawed. Seems to be a disconnect for higher handicap golfers between the driving approach and short game stats. Like it's looking at each category individually instead of determining if poor performance in one leads to poor performance in another down the line.

Higher handicap golfers don't scramble well because they hit poor drives that lead to poor approaches than lead to difficult up and downs. The takeaway shouldn't be improve short game it should be hit better approaches and it starts on the tee.

I'm not even sure how they calculate the short game HC.  I assume it its how close you're hitting it to the pin, but that's not something can say with any confidence until the fix the issue with locating the pin. 

 

The frustrating thing is that the pin location has been the #1 complaint since the product came out but they're more interested in coming out with shinny new objects than making it work right.  So we have bluetooth (which i like!), sensors installed in grips (kinda neat), and fancy-looking but mainly useless "strokes gained."  All style, no substance.  Its a 7/10 product when it could so easily be a 10/10. 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, MattM said:

I guess my question would be if it is just saying that I could gain strokes off the tee because I'm only about 45% in the fairways.  I typically don't hit the ball out of bounds or directly behind a tree, but even though I have a clean approach shot to the green it might be still hurting my off the tee numbers just because of the lack of fairways? I could be wrong there too...

Tough to say because the 3-wood is not necessarily more accurate than a driver. An article looked at PGA Tour players and their distance off-line was not significantly better with a 3-wood. So now you are looking at a hybrid or long iron. So now you are 40-50 yards shorter than your driver. 

Bubba Watson hits 56% of fairways and averages 150 yards to the green after his tee shot. That means he will average 3.118 strokes from that position. 

Lets say he hits 3 iron instead of driver. Let's say he averages 250 yards. That is about 65 yards less than his average. Now he is 210 yards from green. Even if he hits 100% of his fairways with the iron he will average 3.29 in. So he's lost 0.18 strokes. 

For Bubba it is better to hit his driver at 56% than a 3-iron at 100%. 

Unless you are just very accurate with your 3-wood over your driver. I would actually track this. Learn to keep the driver in play enough to get the distance. 

Ask yourself this. Would you take 150 yards from the rough or 190 yards from the fairway? 

[Dave2512]

3 hours ago, dsc123 said:

I'm not even sure how they calculate the short game HC.  I assume it its how close you're hitting it to the pin, but that's not something can say with any confidence until the fix the issue with locating the pin. 

 

The frustrating thing is that the pin location has been the #1 complaint since the product came out but they're more interested in coming out with shinny new objects than making it work right.  So we have bluetooth (which i like!), sensors installed in grips (kinda neat), and fancy-looking but mainly useless "strokes gained."  All style, no substance.  Its a 7/10 product when it could so easily be a 10/10. 

It's probably scrambling and my guess is a big reason GG shows higher handicap golfers with high short game SG numbers is they take more than one shot after the approach quite a bit. It's counting shots not how close.

[MattM]

9 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Tough to say because the 3-wood is not necessarily more accurate than a driver. An article looked at PGA Tour players and their distance off-line was not significantly better with a 3-wood. So now you are looking at a hybrid or long iron. So now you are 40-50 yards shorter than your driver. 

Bubba Watson hits 56% of fairways and averages 150 yards to the green after his tee shot. That means he will average 3.118 strokes from that position. 

Lets say he hits 3 iron instead of driver. Let's say he averages 250 yards. That is about 65 yards less than his average. Now he is 210 yards from green. Even if he hits 100% of his fairways with the iron he will average 3.29 in. So he's lost 0.18 strokes. 

For Bubba it is better to hit his driver at 56% than a 3-iron at 100%. 

Unless you are just very accurate with your 3-wood over your driver. I would actually track this. Learn to keep the driver in play enough to get the distance. 

Ask yourself this. Would you take 150 yards from the rough or 190 yards from the fairway? 

I agree with what you are saying.  I'll take my driver distance and hit from the rough (if not too thick) all day.... (It's just trying to figure out what GG values).

[Dave2512]

I don' think they have the SG stats refined enough to learn much at this point. From what members have posted it's all over the place.

13 hours ago, MattM said:

(It's just trying to figure out what GG values).

 

[iacas]

On January 29, 2016 at 2:03 PM, dsc123 said:

The frustrating thing is that the pin location has been the #1 complaint since the product came out but they're more interested in coming out with shinny new objects than making it work right.  So we have bluetooth (which i like!), sensors installed in grips (kinda neat), and fancy-looking but mainly useless "strokes gained."  All style, no substance.  Its a 7/10 product when it could so easily be a 10/10. 

The problem with fixing the pin has always been fixed: edit the round and put the hole where it was.

[Dave2512]

I don't get the pin complaints. Takes seconds to move it and the back end assumes your last putt is a couple feet from the hole not on the other side of the green. My last putts are so close to the hole the flag and the last tag are nearly on top of each other. Exceptions are lucky long putts and then I have to move it away from the last tag.

[Abu3baid]

4 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

I don't get the pin complaints. Takes seconds to move it and the back end assumes your last putt is a couple feet from the hole not on the other side of the green. My last putts are so close to the hole the flag and the last tag are nearly on top of each other. Exceptions are lucky long putts and then I have to move it away from the last tag.

I agree but what I hate the most is the interface.. Why not do it so that if I wanted I could just click on the putt or the pin location or what ever and then be able to move it with the arrow keys?  If they did that then they can make each increment be 1 foot increments, and it would make my life easy.. As it is right now, it is just too cumbersome it's not surprising people want something different.

I think my solution if implemented will help a lot.

[dsc123]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

The problem with fixing the pin has always been fixed: edit the round and put the hole where it was.

 

Well, count me as one of the 434 people who don't agree with you.  http://myexperience.gamegolf.com/forums/236342-feature-requests/suggestions/5817196-pin-placement

 

I don't understand why someone who is as exacting as yourself doesn't acknowledge how big a flaw this is.

From the GG website on how they calculate strokes gained:

Quote

For example, let's say you are comparing yourself to a PGA Tour Pro for an 8-foot putt. The PGA Tour Pros average 1.5 strokes to hole out from 8 feet (approximately 50% 1-putt, 50% 2-putt, and virtually 0% 3-putt). Therefore, if you hole out the 8-foot putt, you GAIN 0.5 strokes compared to the Tour Pro. However, if you 2-putt the 8-foot putt, then you LOSE 0.5 strokes compared to the Tour Pro.

The same methodology can be applied to any combination of distance away from the hole and lie type.

Using our extensive database, we are able to create the scratch golfer baseline for every position on the golf course, which is used for calculating your strokes gained. Finally, after categorizing your shots we take your average strokes gained or lost and normalized it to represent an 18-hole round.

If you remember the distance of every putt, and you edit every round, sure, you can get your putt distances right.  You do that.  I do that, too. I agree that it's not a big deal.

But there are probably more people who move the pin to the general spot (i.e., correct quadrant) but not not the exact distance in feet.  Those people are probably off 5-10 feet or more.  Some probably don't bother at all, in which case they can be off by 20+ feet regularly. 

The baseline for the calculations is completely unreliable.  A Pro one-putts 75% of the time from 5 feet and 38% of the time from 10 feet.  Unless the vast majority of users are as careful as you are, they're going to be off by 5-10+ feet with regularity.  That's enough to blow the calculations completely.

And if this were truly the fix, and not just an excuse for a product you like, then it would be part of the instructions.  There would literally be a step in the manual titled "Move Pins To Proper Location" if they expected users to do that.  Its not in the manual.  Its not even the subject of any of the how-to videos.  The "Full Summary" video shows you how to edit after the round, moving shots, changing clubs, adding penalties, even marking a putt as off the green.  No mention of moving the pin location, let alone a warning that your stats are meaningless unless you do. 

So when you sink your 8-footer and GG tells you how many strokes you saved compared to an X-HC, its based on flawed data. 

 

Some of this is a limitation of the technology, since GPS won't give you the location to the exact number of feet, but tagging would at least close the margin of error to a few feet.

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

I don't get the pin complaints. Takes seconds to move it and the back end assumes your last putt is a couple feet from the hole not on the other side of the green. My last putts are so close to the hole the flag and the last tag are nearly on top of each other. Exceptions are lucky long putts and then I have to move it away from the last tag.

Putting is simply not important enough for me to complain about, but if I did, a simple "finish hole button" that does not add any strokes but marks where the hole is located while standing over the hole would be sufficient to fix the issue.

[iacas]

On January 30, 2016 at 3:18 PM, dsc123 said:

Well, count me as one of the 434 people who don't agree with you.  http://myexperience.gamegolf.com/forums/236342-feature-requests/suggestions/5817196-pin-placement

That isn't 434 people. You can vote multiple times.

On January 30, 2016 at 3:18 PM, dsc123 said:

I don't understand why someone who is as exacting as yourself doesn't acknowledge how big a flaw this is.

Because, as I've said now a few times… I simply move the hole location to where it was.

This is more precise than relying on the accuracy of GPS to "tag" the location. On a tee shot, or a 6-iron, or something like that, the accuracy to within about 10 feet doesn't matter too much. On a putt, it matters quite a bit.

My method is more accurate, more precise. "Last tap = hole location" is less accurate. It still requires editing. GPS isn't accurate to the foot.

On January 30, 2016 at 3:18 PM, dsc123 said:

But there are probably more people who move the pin to the general spot (i.e., correct quadrant) but not not the exact distance in feet.  Those people are probably off 5-10 feet or more.  Some probably don't bother at all, in which case they can be off by 20+ feet regularly. 

They're off by as much or more if they used the last tap to tag the hole location.

If these people do not care enough to edit their rounds at all, they are simply seeing GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out.

On January 30, 2016 at 3:18 PM, dsc123 said:

And if this were truly the fix, and not just an excuse for a product you like, then it would be part of the instructions.  There would literally be a step in the manual titled "Move Pins To Proper Location" if they expected users to do that. It's not in the manual.  Its not even the subject of any of the how-to videos. The "Full Summary" video shows you how to edit after the round, moving shots, changing clubs, adding penalties, even marking a putt as off the green.  No mention of moving the pin location, let alone a warning that your stats are meaningless unless you do. 

I found several articles and videos that discussed editing rounds. Even unsigning rounds to edit them later.

On January 30, 2016 at 3:18 PM, dsc123 said:

Some of this is a limitation of the technology, since GPS won't give you the location to the exact number of feet, but tagging would at least close the margin of error to a few feet.

More like 10-12 feet.

And often greens are near or between trees, which further inhibits the accuracy of GPS.

---

I don't agree with the subtle point you seemed to try to make: that I'm excusing a flaw in a product because I "like" it.

I simply do not see the advantage of using a tap to signal the end of the hole:

• It's not terribly accurate, so it requires post-round editing all the same.
• It would confuse people. Instead of "tap when you hit a shot" now you're also tapping when you finish a hole.

Since you have to edit anyway, the added tap option simply adds a point of confusion.

Those are my very simple reasons for opposing the "tap to note the hole location" "feature."

[Lihu]

GG is a great long game tool, and most (99%) golfers will improve their game tremendously if they improve their long game such as me.

It doesn't make sense to me to squabble over putting stats, and it's not even really worth my time and effort to remember where the holes were located to do accurate post round editing of the hole position to within 10 feet.

If my putting stats are a little or a lot off using this long game tool, I can live with that.

[saevel25]

I think most people who use game golf are going to go through the process of checking their rounds. This is a tool based around stats. Though Game Golf has done a decent job in using it as a socializing tool. I think this type of device is geared towards those who like stats. Those type of people are more of a perfectionist that not. 

I would say the strokes gained are a pretty good representation of your ability versus a scratch golfer. I think most scratch golfers are good enough and put in enough time to want to make sure their stats are as good as they can get them. So when they compare versus a scratch golfer you are probably getting the most consistent data that you can compare against. The only fault would be in your own data. 

If you want exact numbers then create an excel spreadsheet. It's not overly difficult to do. You can get the strokes gained tables from Every Shot Counts. You can extrapolate the tables. You can use the process and easily keep track of your data. I think Game Golf does a pretty decent job doing what it does. 

[MattM]

For the most part I never edited my putt distance because I didn't think that game golf was accurately counting it since there wasn't a "tap to end the hole feature."  Now that I know they actually looking at that data it gives me a reason to take the extra time to ensure the putt distances are as close to correct as possible....

[Dave2512]

Shouldn't have to edit many putts it's the flag position that may be a little off but it's not much off. The inaccuracy is due to the limitations of the GPS. It doesn't know where the hole actually was but it assumes your last putt was somewhat close to the hole. If anything I have to move the flag further from my last putts more often than dragging it closer.

I think the reason we are seeing funky SG putting stats for higher handicap golfers is simply due to how erratic they are in everything they do. If the baseline is a scratch golfer it's going to look weird when a guy shooting 95 or whatever takes a bunch of strokes around the green. It just knows the number of strokes not the quality of the shots.