Poor Treatment of Muslim Passengers

[Ernest Jones]

31 minutes ago, dkolo said:

This did not happen. Full stop. Trump is fabricating his claim.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/22/donald-trump/fact-checking-trumps-claim-thousands-new-jersey-ch/

Trumped up charges!

[Gunther]

@Abu3baid @Gator Hazard

Of course your posts make sense, except when you Abu, classify these folks as racists and bigots; you have no idea and leaping to that conclusion shows an intolerance similar to someone assuming you're a terrorist.  These folks to a large degree are simply uninformed and fearful.

Back to the main point, my concern comes because invariably the media and the left seek out these stories, embellish them, and make them up out of whole cloth, all in the name of political correctness which is great click bait but it distracts us from the true issue/objective.  And cmon, you know it's why they do it.  This is the war many on the left want to fight so the people who kill or maim become secondary and reviled less so than the old lady who sees a terrorist around every corner.

I have seen posts here more derisive of these people than of ISIS throughout the Paris thread and that sickens me.

I don't think your time is less valuable than mine but these inconveniences are a by-product of the war we're in, no one dies.  The sooner we quit wringing our hands over this insignificant shit, the sooner we can get on with the real battle and put all of it behind us, or at least diminish it to such an extent that we can start focusing a little more on the less important matters.

I'm Italian, my grandpa was spit on and discriminated against through the 40's and 50's.  We won that war, put it behind us and I don't have to worry about that stuff.  My hope is that your grandkids can relate a similar story in 50 years or so.

[jbishop15]

4 minutes ago, Gunther said:

@Abu3baid @Gator Hazard

Of course your posts make sense, except when you Abu, classify these folks as racists and bigots; you have no idea and leaping to that conclusion shows an intolerance similar to someone assuming you're a terrorist.  These folks to a large degree are simply uninformed and fearful.

Back to the main point, my concern comes because invariably the media and the left seek out these stories, embellish them, and make them up out of whole cloth, all in the name of political correctness which is great click bait but it distracts us from the true issue/objective.  And cmon, you know it's why they do it.  This is the war many on the left want to fight so the people who kill or maim become secondary and reviled less so than the old lady who sees a terrorist around every corner.

I have seen posts here more derisive of these people than of ISIS throughout the Paris thread and that sickens me.

I don't think your time is less valuable than mine but these inconveniences are a by-product of the war we're in, no one dies.  The sooner we quit wringing our hands over this insignificant shit, the sooner we can get on with the real battle and put all of it behind us, or at least diminish it to such an extent that we can start focusing a little more on the less important matters.

I'm Italian, my grandpa was spit on and discriminated against through the 40's and 50's.  We won that war, put it behind us and I don't have to worry about that stuff.  My hope is that your grandkids can relate a similar story in 50 years or so.

No, they are racists and bigots. If you profile someone based on their ethnicity, you are being racist. Full stop, bottom line. 

It's also not insignificant shit to the people who it's being done to. It's real easy when you can just get on a plane without having to worry about some dumb ass calling you a terrorist. 

Also, @Abu3baid, I am genuinely unhappy that you had to go through something like this. Nobody deserves that type of treatment. 

[rkim291968]

Trump's assertion that thousands of Muslims in New Jesersy cheered 9/11 at the time didn't happen.  None were reported.   At the time, I saw footage of few (outside of US in Iran? Afhghanistan?  Pakistan?) cheering on TV but never thousands of any group in US.  Trump is lying again as he has done so many times before.  He may be doing this to attract more support from those who will go for this kind of nonsense.  

40 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Trumped up charges!

Charge him for conspiracy ....

[DrvFrShow]

It has gotten so bad that a New Age bookstore in Colorado that has been there for over 30 years named Isis, after the Egyptian Goddess, protector against evil was vandalized by someone who thought they were selling ISIL propaganda. The ignorance of people astounds me. 

And the big lies being told by major candidates, and more than one are guilty of it, seem to be stoking the fires of hate and fear. Two powerful engines. Telling big lies seems to work better than telling small lies. Repeat them enough and don't back down from them, and people will believe them. But freedom of speech allows them to continue to tell them. It worked in 1933, too. It is up to the people to educate themselves. 

@Abu3baid Trump scares me more than ISIL. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm sorry my country is behaving this way. I thought we were better than this.

[newtogolf]

2 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Trumped up charges!

Not completely, here is a blog from 2014 that makes mention of people celebrating after 9/11 in Paterson NJ.

Quote

As I noted, last year, and in many previous posts on this site over the years, Paterson is the American city with the highest concentration of Palestinians. The city, the site of many pro-9/11 cheers and riots on the day of the attacks, also has a number of other Muslims who have grown to dominate the city’s demographics and elections. It is ground zero (just as Dearbornistan, Michigan and a growing number of other American cities are) for what happens when we do nothing to stop Islamic immigration. They take over and embrace the radical chic of terrorists. Chris Christie has repeatedly “reached out” and campaigned to Paterson’s extremist Muslims, even sparing a HAMAS terrorist from deportation and appointing his extremist Paterson HAMASnik Muslim lawyer to a judgeship. Notice that Gov. Chrispiecreme did not denounce the Palestinian flag raising and declarations against Israel’s existence, last year, and he didn’t this year, either. He never will.

Admittedly the author is hard right but I had heard from family and friends who lived in NY at the time (I was in VA) how disgusted they were that some people were cheering the attacks back in 2001.  I doubt Trump actually saw the protestors but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there were people cheering in the streets, though not likely 1000's as Trump suggests.

Here's the full link if anyone wants to review it; http://www.debbieschlussel.com/71572/huh-muslim-new-jersey-councilman-says-us-city-is-part-of-palestine-palestinian-flag-raised-over-nj-city-by-muslim-charged-w-violence/

[jbishop15]

5 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Not completely, here is a blog from 2014 that makes mention of people celebrating after 9/11 in Paterson NJ.

Admittedly the author is hard right but I had heard from family and friends who lived in NY at the time (I was in VA) how disgusted they were that some people were cheering the attacks back in 2001.  I doubt Trump actually saw the protestors but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there were people cheering in the streets, though not likely 1000's as Trump suggests.

Here's the full link if anyone wants to review it; http://www.debbieschlussel.com/71572/huh-muslim-new-jersey-councilman-says-us-city-is-part-of-palestine-palestinian-flag-raised-over-nj-city-by-muslim-charged-w-violence/

It's been debunked numerous times. 

[rkim291968]

6 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Not completely, here is a blog from 2014 that makes mention of people celebrating after 9/11 in Paterson NJ.

Admittedly the author is hard right but I had heard from family and friends who lived in NY at the time (I was in VA) how disgusted they were that some people were cheering the attacks back in 2001.  I doubt Trump actually saw the protestors but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there were people cheering in the streets, though not likely 1000's as Trump suggests.

Here's the full link if anyone wants to review it; http://www.debbieschlussel.com/71572/huh-muslim-new-jersey-councilman-says-us-city-is-part-of-palestine-palestinian-flag-raised-over-nj-city-by-muslim-charged-w-violence/

Come on, @newtogolf.    The following insert "The city, the site of many pro-9/11 cheers and riots on the day of the attack" by this author translates into thousands of people cheering in the streets?    There were no thousands of people cheering in the streets of US.   There may have been a small groups of fundamental Muslims who may have cheered but I doubt it they did so openly.   They would have been lynched then.    Trump is 100% off base on this one like so many other outrageous things he has said before.   He's a psychopath, that one.

[JonMA1]

I don't fly often, but I cannot remember flying when there wasn't a Muslim on board. Guess how many times I've thought there might be a bomb on the plane?

Looking at a Muslim and thinking "terrorist" has got to be the most ridiculous assumption one could make. It's embarrassing. Hey, I'm an Italian American... and obviously a mafioso.

There are going to be attacks, of that I have no doubt. But singling out Muslims - most of whom are Americans - has it's own dangers.

My son just moved into large apartment complex downstate that, from what I could tell, is made up predominantly of residents from Middle Eastern decent. You want to know what worries me for my son's safety? It's not that any of those residents are terrorists, it's that a-holes are going to harass these Americans to the point where there will be riots.

We are in a war against ISIS. But you cannot tell one based on how they're dressed or how they talk.

To the OP, that story is so bizarre that I wonder if there isn't more to it. Not the part of some idiot freaking out - people are stupid. But the part where the airline wouldn't let them board.

[Pretzel]

4 hours ago, Gunther said:

@Abu3baid @Gator Hazard

Of course your posts make sense, except when you Abu, classify these folks as racists and bigots; you have no idea and leaping to that conclusion shows an intolerance similar to someone assuming you're a terrorist.  These folks to a large degree are simply uninformed and fearful.

Gunther, at this point in time people had made it beyond TSA security. While it doesn't say much (the TSA fails miserably in just about every aspect of security), it means that the security going through the same procedures again will not prevent anything from happening. The events mentioned in the OP are harassment, plain and simple. People who had passed through security were called out and inconvenienced for the sole reason of their race and religion. 

It's not being "politically correct" to say that this is wrong. It's called basic human decency and realizing that there was no basis to the claims. If the same claims had been made against a white male I have no doubt that nothing would have been done, but because somebody saw someone who looked like a Muslim it's suddenly okay? If you want to argue that it's justified due to the acts of terror commited by other Muslims, what about the terrorists like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, James Holmes, Christopher Harper-Mercer? You're setting double standards, because acts of terror are committed by people from all backgrounds. That doesn't mean it's okay to single out people of a single background simply because they share a religion (a religion 1.57 billion strong, mind you) with people who commit acts of terror. You cannot justify the discrimination against more than a billion people simply because some number among them belong to a terrorist cell. In the Central African Republic and Uganda, as well as India, there are Christian terror organizations, but I don't see you calling for the same treatment of Christians as you do Muslims.

You need to realize that what happened to those people is morally wrong. While a small number of false positives is much preferred to a single false negative, the truth is that nothing short of complete strip searches and x-rays for each passenger (along with constant surveillance) could stop an attack in an airport. The best airport in the world for security is in Israel. They profile their passengers based upon their actions and they talk to each and every passenger that passes through, with lengths varying depending on how long it takes security to be confident the passenger poses no threat. Their most recent security lapse, as near as I can tell from my brief research, is a single man with a pocketknife who slipped through in November of 2002. If you want to make sure people are secure the way to do so would be to implement an effective system to begin with, rather than harass innocent citizens and travelers with no ties to terrorist organizations other than a religion that 21.5% of all people have in common.

[Gunther]

18 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Gunther, at this point in time people had made it beyond TSA security. While it doesn't say much (the TSA fails miserably in just about every aspect of security), it means that the security going through the same procedures again will not prevent anything from happening. The events mentioned in the OP are harassment, plain and simple. People who had passed through security were called out and inconvenienced for the sole reason of their race and religion. 

It's not being "politically correct" to say that this is wrong. It's called basic human decency and realizing that there was no basis to the claims. If the same claims had been made against a white male I have no doubt that nothing would have been done, but because somebody saw someone who looked like a Muslim it's suddenly okay? If you want to argue that it's justified due to the acts of terror commited by other Muslims, what about the terrorists like Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, James Holmes, Christopher Harper-Mercer? You're setting double standards, because acts of terror are committed by people from all backgrounds. That doesn't mean it's okay to single out people of a single background simply because they share a religion (a religion 1.57 billion strong, mind you) with people who commit acts of terror. You cannot justify the discrimination against more than a billion people simply because some number among them belong to a terrorist cell. In the Central African Republic and Uganda, as well as India, there are Christian terror organizations, but I don't see you calling for the same treatment of Christians as you do Muslims.

You need to realize that what happened to those people is morally wrong. While a small number of false positives is much preferred to a single false negative, the truth is that nothing short of complete strip searches and x-rays for each passenger (along with constant surveillance) could stop an attack in an airport. The best airport in the world for security is in Israel. They profile their passengers based upon their actions and they talk to each and every passenger that passes through, with lengths varying depending on how long it takes security to be confident the passenger poses no threat. Their most recent security lapse, as near as I can tell from my brief research, is a single man with a pocketknife who slipped through in November of 2002. If you want to make sure people are secure the way to do so would be to implement an effective system to begin with, rather than harass innocent citizens and travelers with no ties to terrorist organizations other than a religion that 21.5% of all people have in common.

Look, nowhere did I say what happened to those passengers was right or good or proper.  Obviously, it was not.

I know a good deal about how the world works having been around it a few times. I lived with Muslims for almost 2 years in Adana, Turkey and never experienced an unpleasant event relative to our differing faiths.  I've spent months in India and know nothing of Christian terror groups there although the Hindus and Muslims are regularly in conflict.  You'll have to enlighten me on that one.

What angers me about this is that these situations, while unpleasant, are insignificant when compared to the pain and suffering perpetrated by Muslim jihadists (not only ISIS).  While your post was reasonable, as I hope mine have been, there have been others in this thread dripping with histrionic vitriol and self-righteousness towards folks who don't like the look of others, while I have yet to see these same people matching that anger towards the enemy.

ISIS is here, there are 900 FBI investigations currently underway, we have a president seemingly uncommitted to fighting this war and people are fearful.  Slap em on the wrist and send em on their way, save the moral indignation for the guys that want to kill us.  That's all I'm really saying.

[jbishop15]

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Look, nowhere did I say what happened to those passengers was right or good or proper.  Obviously, it was not.

I know a good deal about how the world works having been around it a few times. I lived with Muslims for almost 2 years in Adana, Turkey and never experienced an unpleasant event relative to our differing faiths.  I've spent months in India and know nothing of Christian terror groups there although the Hindus and Muslims are regularly in conflict.  You'll have to enlighten me on that one.

What angers me about this is that these situations, while unpleasant, are insignificant when compared to the pain and suffering perpetrated by Muslim jihadists (not only ISIS).  While your post was reasonable, as I hope mine have been, there have been others in this thread dripping with histrionic vitriol and self-righteousness towards folks who don't like the look of others, while I have yet to see these same people matching that anger towards the enemy.

ISIS is here, there are 900 FBI investigations currently underway, we have a president seemingly uncommitted to fighting this war and people are fearful.  Slap em on the wrist and send em on their way, save the moral indignation for the guys that want to kill us.  That's all I'm really saying.

You can stop ISIS without treating Muslims poorly. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It's almost as if you can care about two things at once! 

[JonMA1]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Look, nowhere did I say what happened to those passengers was right or good or proper.  Obviously, it was not.

I know a good deal about how the world works having been around it a few times. I lived with Muslims for almost 2 years in Adana, Turkey and never experienced an unpleasant event relative to our differing faiths.  I've spent months in India and know nothing of Christian terror groups there although the Hindus and Muslims are regularly in conflict.  You'll have to enlighten me on that one.

What angers me about this is that these situations, while unpleasant, are insignificant when compared to the pain and suffering perpetrated by Muslim jihadists (not only ISIS).  While your post was reasonable, as I hope mine have been, there have been others in this thread dripping with histrionic vitriol and self-righteousness towards folks who don't like the look of others, while I have yet to see these same people matching that anger towards the enemy.

ISIS is here, there are 900 FBI investigations currently underway, we have a president seemingly uncommitted to fighting this war and people are fearful.  Slap em on the wrist and send em on their way, save the moral indignation for the guys that want to kill us.  That's all I'm really saying.

I thought your posts were reasonable.

As far as anger towards the enemy, please do not mistake my dislike of profiling based solely on ethnicity or religion as any weakness or sympathy towards the enemy. The two are completely different.

I just think if the article is 100% true and happened exactly how it was reported - which I questioned - that those kinds of ignorant, knee-jerk reactions could be detrimental and exactly the kind of divisiveness the enemy wants.

[Golfingdad]

5 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Not completely, here is a blog from 2014 that makes mention of people celebrating after 9/11 in Paterson NJ.

Admittedly the author is hard right but I had heard from family and friends who lived in NY at the time (I was in VA) how disgusted they were that some people were cheering the attacks back in 2001.  I doubt Trump actually saw the protestors but it's not out of the realm of possibility that there were people cheering in the streets, though not likely 1000's as Trump suggests.

Here's the full link if anyone wants to review it; http://www.debbieschlussel.com/71572/huh-muslim-new-jersey-councilman-says-us-city-is-part-of-palestine-palestinian-flag-raised-over-nj-city-by-muslim-charged-w-violence/

You're joking right?  Dude called Dearborn "Dearbornistan."  For crying out loud, you might as well cite Trumps comments as proof, it would have the same credibility.

Trump is (again) flat out lying because he knows people are dumb and will buy into it, or he's an idiot.

[rkim291968]

13 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Trump is (again) flat out lying because he knows people are dumb and will buy into it, or he's an idiot.

Likely, both.  

Trump keeps pushing the limit on what he can get away with his lie/exaggeration/rhetoric.  And the 30% of the Reps are buying it.  It's sickening.

[Kenny Lee]

Personally, I don't have much sympathy for Muslims.

I'm waiting for ANY Muslim to denounce the acts of terror that are being carried out worldwide, almost exclusively by Muslims.

Their silence speaks very loudly.

[Mr. Desmond]

24 minutes ago, Kenny Lee said:

Personally, I don't have much sympathy for Muslims.

I'm waiting for ANY Muslim to denounce the acts of terror that are being carried out worldwide, almost exclusively by Muslims.

Their silence speaks very loudly.

Google is your friend, in this case your Islamic friend:

muslims speaking out against terrorism

islam does not support terrorism

[JonMA1]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Google is your friend, in this case your Islamic friend:

muslims speaking out against terrorism

islam does not support terrorism

Damn it, you beat me to it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996902/i-am-a-muslim-paris-attacks-social-media.html