Clinton vows to stop saying 'illegal immigrants'

[dkolo]

34 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

Okay, then let us apply your logic to another example by replacing a few key words:

Lets extrapolate this to terrorists.  Instead of Islamic Extremists lets just call them Muslims, because all Islamic Extremists are Muslims. (My sincere apologies but figured this would carry weight given current discussions in other threads).

You see the point?  Yes, the approach of they are all foreigners can mean they are foreign but they are more than that and we all know it and to just call them foreigners does not identify who they are and what their intent is here which is different than other foreigners intents.  If you walked up to Muslims in America and called them Islamic Extremists you would be castigated and rightfully so.  Also, since you brought semantics into play here.  I never just said foreigners I said "they are not MERELY foreigners".  The definitions also included this because CONTEXT is important and thus is not just a semantic argument over definition. Calling people by something other than what they are doesn't solve anything.  You can call them pink water buffalo, they are still illegal aliens not just "foreigners" a term typically used to refer to persons who are visiting from a different place.

 

 

Look, your comments vaccillated with respect to whether illegal immigrants were foreigners and they are. You criticized @mcanadiens with respect to using the term foreigner when it could be further modified as needed and with appropriate context. I have no issue calling them illegal aliens, but criticizing alternatives that are entirely capable of being adequately descriptive is pointless.

[jbishop15]

3 hours ago, Gator Hazard said:

This is baloney.  Trespassing is trespassing, they are trespassing.  What she really means is "I do not want to upset a significant block of voters as I will do and say anything to become POTUS".  I cannot believe that we can get away with charging people money to become US Citizens, make them wait, take tests and all that and at the same time say "oooor you can take option B, the 'undocumented immigrants' route".  PC nonsense there is nothing wrong with calling illegal immigrants illegal aliens or illegal immigrants.  But we don't want to hurt their feeewings (intentional typo) so instead we will pander to them and let them have access to our programs. 

She is right though, they do have names and families and dreams, just like every single other human being.  Why are they different?  

It's not a big deal, but I'm in favor of using 'undocumented' over 'illegals', to move away from the negative and unhelpful connotations of the word 'illegals'. Makes the conversation a little easier. 

Also, I'd like to point out that being an 'illegal' means that you don't get to use those programs, because applying for them puts you under scrutiny that can get you deported. It is far more common for undocumented workers to pay into a system that they see very little if any benefit from. 

https://news.vice.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes-to-fund-programs-theyre-banned-from-using

Edited November 25, 2015 by jbishop15
semi colons are not quote marks, dumbass

[Gator Hazard]

46 minutes ago, dkolo said:

Look, your comments vaccillated with respect to whether illegal immigrants were foreigners and they are. You criticized @mcanadiens with respect to using the term foreigner when it could be further modified as needed and with appropriate context. I have no issue calling them illegal aliens, but criticizing alternatives that are entirely capable of being adequately descriptive is pointless.

Disagreeing and criticizing are entirely different. Stopping at calling them foreigners disrespects foreigners who abide by the laws. In context when speaking about them it is needed. Foreigners is not adequately descriptive of individuals breaking the law to be here

Edited November 25, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, dkolo said:

I don't know how these make your point. An illegal alien is neither a citizen nor permanent resident.

Besides, the actual dictionary definition is below:

Full Definition of FOREIGNER

1

:  a person belonging to or owing allegiance to a foreign country

2

chiefly dialect :  one not native to a place or community :  stranger 1

This is not the full definition.  It's missing definition 3;  a group of 6 or 7 dirty white boys from New York who, while waiting for a (hot blooded) girl like you, who is cold as ice and likes to play head games,    Start seeing double vision and continually wanna know what love is.

---------

I don't have time or energy to care about this.  I mean, we barely have enough time to worry about flat out lies told by some candidates - cough trump cough - so who cares if others want to pander with language???

[Gator Hazard]

31 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

It's not a big deal, but I'm in favor of using 'undocumented' over 'illegals', to move away from the negative and unhelpful connotations of the word 'illegals'. Makes the conversation a little easier. 

Also, I'd like to point out that being an 'illegal' means that you don't get to use those programs, because applying for them puts you under scrutiny that can get you deported. It is far more common for undocumented workers to pay into a system that they see very little if any benefit from. 

https://news.vice.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes-to-fund-programs-theyre-banned-from-using

Should we not call criminals criminals because of the negative connotation?  Illegal immigrants are criminals. They entered the country illegally and by doing so invalidate our processes and those who went through them

 

yes they do receive benefits including public education and emergency medical services. Some even find ways to get medicaid and other services

[Patch]

Clinton is just looking for votes from the "legal" immigrants. She has the same chance of winning as Ron White does 

[CR McDivot]

My daughter, immediately after receiving her BS in Equine Science (which by the way she financed herself before entering college) decided to travel to the south Pacific and teach English in a Christian school. She taught there without pay for 2 years.

While on this mission she met and married a fine young native (also a Christian). After her term she came back to the U.S. along with her husband.

In order for my son in law to enter and stay in this country with his wife, my daughter, it was required that we sponsor him and guarantee that he would not be a burden on the social services.

This young man has proven to be not only a fine Christian but an excellent husband and provider for my daughter and my 2 grandchildren produced by this union.

He entered this country LEGALLY and has met all the requirements of the government. He has been a perfect example of all that can be asked of an immigrant.

Yet, he continually has to be reviewed by the authorities in order to stay... he does not desire to citizenship nor to give up his native land's citizenship... (and I cannot fault him on this).

Those who break the law, enter illegally, or overstay their visa are granted special consideration while this fine young husband and father is under constant threat by our dysfunctional system.

Maybe that explains why he does not desire citizenship. At least, if worse came to worse, he could flee this unjust system and return with his family to his safe and welcoming Christian homeland.

That would be a great loss not only to myself, but also to our society as a whole.

Edited November 25, 2015 by CR McDivot

[jbishop15]

8 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

Should we not call criminals criminals because of the negative connotation?  Illegal immigrants are criminals. They entered the country illegally and by doing so invalidate our processes and those who went through them

 

yes they do receive benefits including public education and emergency medical services. Some even find ways to get medicaid and other services

They also do not get access to many others, so, at worst, it evens out, and more likely, they lose out. 

Sure, they're criminals in the most literal definition of the word; but so is everyone who runs a red light or does a rolling stop at a stop sign. We wouldn't call them criminals because the word is too strong to describe who they actually are. 

Illegal immigrants are literally criminals, yes, but calling them that puts them in the same category as actual criminals, which makes conversations about them difficult. Most undocumented workers are here fleeing from the cartels or from other violence. I'm not comfortable labelling these people as criminals when they are running for their lives. 

@Patch - if you genuinely think that Hilary has no shot of winning, I have some beach front property in Nebraska to sell you. 

[dkolo]

6 minutes ago, jbishop15 said:

They also do not get access to many others, so, at worst, it evens out, and more likely, they lose out. 

Sure, they're criminals in the most literal definition of the word; but so is everyone who runs a red light or does a rolling stop at a stop sign. We wouldn't call them criminals because the word is too strong to describe who they actually are. 

Illegal immigrants are literally criminals, yes, but calling them that puts them in the same category as actual criminals, which makes conversations about them difficult. Most undocumented workers are here fleeing from the cartels or from other violence. I'm not comfortable labelling these people as criminals when they are running for their lives. 

@Patch - if you genuinely think that Hilary has no shot of winning, I have some beach front property in Nebraska to sell you. 

Not exactly. Unlawful entry into the U.S. is a crime. Unlawful presence is a civil offense. So while those who snuck across the border committed a crime, people who overstayed visas, for instance, are not de facto literally criminals. 

[jbishop15]

1 minute ago, dkolo said:

Not exactly. Unlawful entry into the U.S. is a crime. Unlawful presence is a civil offense. So while those who snuck across the border committed a crime, people who overstayed visas, for instance, are not de facto literally criminals. 

Fair point 

[Gator Hazard]

1 hour ago, jbishop15 said:

They also do not get access to many others, so, at worst, it evens out, and more likely, they lose out. 

Sure, they're criminals in the most literal definition of the word; but so is everyone who runs a red light or does a rolling stop at a stop sign. We wouldn't call them criminals because the word is too strong to describe who they actually are. 

Illegal immigrants are literally criminals, yes, but calling them that puts them in the same category as actual criminals, which makes conversations about them difficult. Most undocumented workers are here fleeing from the cartels or from other violence. I'm not comfortable labelling these people as criminals when they are running for their lives. 

@Patch - if you genuinely think that Hilary has no shot of winning, I have some beach front property in Nebraska to sell you. 

Them "losing out" defeats the reasoning behind why they go through so much to get here.  They do anything but lose out by coming here illegally.  That doesn't say much for where they are coming from but it still stands that they benefit from illegally entering our nation, breaking our laws and playing on our sympathies.  Not all or even the majority of them are fleeing cartels and violence.  They are fleeing many things, those included but most coming in from Mexico are looking for better health care and benefits and better cash even at under the table rates than they can make back home.  That is not our fault nor our responsibility to provide an adequate lifestyle for all on this planet.  If at any point I have come off as a heartless person please understand that is not the case.  I am just practical enough to understand that we cannot open our borders and let any and everyone enter who pleases when they please and how they please.

51 minutes ago, dkolo said:

Not exactly. Unlawful entry into the U.S. is a crime. Unlawful presence is a civil offense. So while those who snuck across the border committed a crime, people who overstayed visas, for instance, are not de facto literally criminals. 

I agree with this somewhat but they are still breaking a law if not bending it severely.  

Edited November 25, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Jeremie Boop]

3 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

I will attempt to set it back to your intended direction, I hope.

It was a reasonable response from Clinton who was asked by Vargas to use "undocumented" instead of "illegal."   She agreed.    My  take?    Vargas should have focused on better things than the wording.    He has someone who can be the next POTUS and why waste a question/request in favor of asking more worthy question?    As to Clinton, she was cornered to say yes to the request.   Saying no would have been politically incorrect given the situation.   

 

We got ISIS, slow growing economy, Trump running rampant and Vargas is asking the POTUS candidate to use a better wording ....

Not sure how it was reasonable to ask her to use "undocumented" instead of "illegal".... But of course, PC has to rule when it comes to a politician who is trying to pander to a demographic they want/need to win.

[newtogolf]

So using that logic, illegal search and seizure now becomes undocumented search and seizure, illegal wire tapping becomes undocumented wire tapping, illegal drugs are now undocumented drugs?

They entered the country illegally and / or remain here illegally.  Undocumented sounds like they forget to file paperwork or it got lost, when in reality they decided to ignore the legal methods to enter this country and cut the line so they can benefit from the generosity of the American tax payers.  I see no reason to remove the negative connotation, thus I prefer the term "illegal".

[rkim291968]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

Undocumented sounds like they forget to file paperwork or it got lost, when in reality they decided to ignore the legal methods to enter this country and cut the line so they can benefit from the generosity of the American tax payers.  I see no reason to remove the negative connotation, thus I prefer the term "illegal".

+1.   "Illegal" is the proper wording.   "Undocumented" has a significantly different meaning than "illegal."   This is a case of PC gone a little too silly.   I think it is a "euphemism."

[boogielicious]

Everyone of these threads seems to head down bad directions. Please keep it civil.

[mcanadiens]

The reason they ought to be called foreigners is that if we enforced our own laws properly we wouldn't have a problem with illegals (or undocumented if you really insist).

In their typical stupid way, the politician's focus the attention on removing the illegals from the country and building walls. Instead, if we simply punished those who pay them illegally, we'd stop giving those people a reason to come here in the first place. Just locally, I'm aware of several businesses that employ these kind of workers with little to no fear of getting caught. With a nice stiff fine against these employers, ICE could fund extra investigators and have money to spare. Additionally, a few steps towards preventing illegals from gaming the social welfare system would certainly help. 

I don't vilify the people that cross our boarders illegally. In their sport, I'd probably do the same thing. It's up to us to give them little reason for coming here. 

[Gator Hazard]

14 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

The reason they ought to be called foreigners is that if we enforced our own laws properly we wouldn't have a problem with illegals (or undocumented if you really insist).

In their typical stupid way, the politician's focus the attention on removing the illegals from the country and building walls. Instead, if we simply punished those who pay them illegally, we'd stop giving those people a reason to come here in the first place. Just locally, I'm aware of several businesses that employ these kind of workers with little to no fear of getting caught. With a nice stiff fine against these employers, ICE could fund extra investigators and have money to spare. Additionally, a few steps towards preventing illegals from gaming the social welfare system would certainly help. 

I don't vilify the people that cross our boarders illegally. In their sport, I'd probably do the same thing. It's up to us to give them little reason for coming here. 

But that would be like saying we shouldn't call a person who burgles a burglar.  They are if that is what they do.  If illegal aliens come here illegally that is an action that they themselves have undertaken and deservedly and accurately should be called illegal aliens.  Most politicians won't talk about deporting the illegal aliens because it is such a hot topic, even if it is right you get demonized for being such a cruel and heartless person.  

If you know businesses are illegally employing people you can inform the IRS and they will investigate and audit those businesses.

[mcanadiens]

1 minute ago, Gator Hazard said:

But that would be like saying we shouldn't call a person who burgles a burglar.  They are if that is what they do.  If illegal aliens come here illegally that is an action that they themselves have undertaken and deservedly and accurately should be called illegal aliens.  Most politicians won't talk about deporting the illegal aliens because it is such a hot topic, even if it is right you get demonized for being such a cruel and heartless person.  

If you know businesses are illegally employing people you can inform the IRS and they will investigate and audit those businesses.

1. The point I obviously wasn't making very well is that you wouldn't call them either if they didn't exist. They'd all simply be visitors or people on work visas. In other words, proper enforcement of law would render this a non-issue. 

2. The IRS would primarily be focused on tax law. I'm pretty sure that Investigating the employment of illegals would generally fall to ICE first. Think about all those I-9 forms. Certainly there would probably be some serious tax consequences as well, which ICE could make your favorite revenue service aware of.