Making the natural fit the unnatural is the question.

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, collapse said:

Then explain the 5sk good and bad swing article.Why the same apparent swing produces both a good and bad shot.

I can explain it. You, however, seem unable to do so.

His setup, his backswing, virtually everything was identical. Because "Golf is Hard™", tiny small nearly imperceptible differences can produce wildly different results. Golfers often say they want to be "more consistent" and, the simple truth is, they already are consistent.

That's the point of the article.

13 minutes ago, collapse said:

Ok Dave325....but how often do you see a pro grip the club in the lower hand first and then adjust the lead hand....note grip,not hold,grip. ....I would suggest never....this represents the common denominator that is little understood

I almost never see an amateur or a hacker do that, either.

Look, I'll put it this way, since you seem to really like to focus on stuff that doesn't matter all that much: you, in your "rarely if ever breaks 80" golf swing, probably have a lot more glaring "big" things wrong with your swing than the little tiny things.

I'll put it another way: you could put me in a really, really strong grip. A palm grip. A really weak grip. You could make my clubs an inch longer. You could make me stand too close to the ball. Or too far away, or too tall to it.

And I'd still beat you.

The small things matter, yes, absolutely no argument from me there. We fix a lot of setups, and a lot of grips. Etc. But they don't have big impacts… they're just easy to fix, and help a little, so why not?

Furthermore, there is little commonality in these "small" things. Some people have small hands but prefer thicker grips. Okay, so they're naturally going to tend to be more palmy. Some players prefer stronger grips, others weaker. Some have their right hands aligned with their left, others not so much. Some feel more comfortable closer to the ball, others farther. Etc.

And yes, this thread makes little to no sense, because nobody has a clue what "natural" and "unnatural" are, and that seems to include you.

[collapse]

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

"The natural fit " is what you have yet to define. Showing random stills of a golfer holding a club means nothing. There is no uniform way to grip a club. So trying to find a "natural" that varies from one person to the next and make it "fit" an undefined position is futile.

The position is defined.The photo shows the natural hang of the hands,(specifically the lead to be noted).This Justin Rose photo then shows it when the club adapts to it.The open face at address according to the JN quote further confirms this concept. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, collapse said:

The position is defined.The photo shows the natural hang of the hands,(specifically the lead to be noted).This Justin Rose photo then shows it when the club adapts to it. The open face at address according to the JN quote further confirms this concept. 

No, it doesn't.

Jack wanted the clubface slightly open because it was closing during the downswing, and because he set the ball an inch or two behind the ball, it had to be "open" to what he wanted to deliver an inch or two later - when it would have closed a bit more. There's nothing more to it than that.

Besides, Jack's clubface pointed LEFT of the target line at impact on nearly every shot he hit in his entire career.

That's not the natural hang of Justin Rose's hands. Look at his right hand, after all - in the freeze frame YOU posted. It's not even close to being at the same angle.

[collapse]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

That's not the natural hang of Justin Rose's hands. Look at his right hand, after all - in the freeze frame YOU posted. It's not even close to being at the same angle.

We disagree,the lead hand of JR does match the free natural hand seen in the opening photo.The right hand has not been discussed yet.But essentially it will adapt in a "yin yang" manner,to use that metaphor,if done correctly.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, collapse said:

We disagree, the lead hand of JR does match the free natural hand seen in the opening photo.The right hand has not been discussed yet.But essentially it will adapt in a "yin yang" manner,to use that metaphor,if done correctly.

Well, I'm comfortable with my experience on the topic of golf instruction, and I'll note how you've avoided responding to the many, many other questions posted.

Here's what you should do in the next 24 hours:

• Answer this question: are you just @mythbuster?
• Tell us your name, where you play golf, and where we can find your handicap card.
• Post a Member Swing thread so we can see your revelations in action, and so I can demonstrate how my post above about how you likely have far, far bigger "big" issues that need to be addressed first is accurate.

In other words, I disagree with you, yes, absolutely. Adam Scott grips the club at his side. He's made that point several times. He grips it at his side with the clubface pretty much square to the target line.

You're showing a freeze frame of a video where JR is demonstrating something. He does not put his hand, wrist, arm, or the club in these positions when he takes his address position in a round. I've seen it, in person, hundreds of times.

In fact, I can't say I've ever seen anyone grip the club with their arm, hand, etc. in the positions you like to freeze frame.

[collapse]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Well, I'm comfortable with my experience on the topic of golf instruction, and I'll note how you've avoided responding to the many, many other questions posted.

Here's what you should do in the next 24 hours:

• Answer this question: are you just @mythbuster?
• Tell us your name, where you play golf, and where we can find your handicap card.
• Post a Member Swing thread so we can see your revelations in action, and so I can demonstrate how my post above about how you likely have far, far bigger "big" issues that need to be addressed first is accurate.

In other words, I disagree with you, yes, absolutely. Adam Scott grips the club at his side. He's made that point several times. He grips it at his side with the clubface pretty much square to the target line.

You're showing a freeze frame of a video where JR is demonstrating something. He does not put his hand, wrist, arm, or the club in these positions when he takes his address position in a round. I've seen it, in person, hundreds of times.

In fact, I can't say I've ever seen anyone grip the club with their arm, hand, etc. in the positions you like to freeze frame.

I really don't care if anyone acknowledges what I am attempting to point out through these various online sources.Asking if I am mythbuster is a disingenuous question.

Edited December 18, 2015 by collapse

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, collapse said:

I really don't care if anyone acknowledges what I am attempting to point out through these various online sources.Asking if I am mythbuster is a disingenuous question.

It is not. You showed up right around the time he was first being restricted for trolling. Your first post was in his topic. You've continued to post in the same tone, verbiage, and on the same topics. And you, like him, avoid answering direct questions and points.

And I'll note that you have, once again, avoided answering the many direct questions, contradictions, and points raised against the things you've said.

I welcome and encourage discussion, and disagreement, but you've said a whole lot of nothing while seemingly disagreeing with the way golf is taught or played.

So, here's one more clear and direct question, which I would ask that you answer with clear and direct language of your own (I said very similar things to @mythbuster too): what is the point of this thread? In one sentence, what does this topic tell golfers to do? What is the idea, or thought, or whatever?

Examples of clear language that might answer the question (I'm making these up and not saying they are real or truthful) are:

• I believe that all golfers would benefit from gripping the club as seen here in this freeze frame of Justin Rose so that their hand sits on the club more naturally.
• I believe that golfers should all address the club with the clubface wide open as seen in this Justin Rose freeze frame, then address the ball by closing their clubface the nearly 80° required, letting their lead arm roll as well, and address the ball with the clubface slightly right-pointing of the target (for a righty).

Let's hear it, since you won't do anything else asked of you, or respond to anything else previously asked of you. Failure to respond fully from here on out is likely to result in warnings. Like @mythbuster, you've worn thin everyone's patience with your mystical, "skirt the issue and talk in gibberish" act.

[collapse]

" In one sentence, what does this topic tell golfers to do? What is the idea, or thought, or whatever?"

It tells them they are fighting with the arms and hands natural tendencies by  using manipulation to try and produce a solid golf strike.

 

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, collapse said:

It tells them they are fighting with the arms and hands natural tendencies by using manipulation to try and produce a solid golf strike.

HOW?

• What are these natural tendencies?
• How are golfers "fighting" against them?
• What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"?

You don't even seem to understand the definition of "clear."

Respond to this:

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'll put it another way: you could put me in a really, really strong grip. A palm grip. A really weak grip. You could make my clubs an inch longer. You could make me stand too close to the ball. Or too far away, or too tall to it.

And I'd still beat you.

The small things matter, yes, absolutely no argument from me there. We fix a lot of setups, and a lot of grips. Etc. But they don't have big impacts… they're just easy to fix, and help a little, so why not?

Furthermore, there is little commonality in these "small" things. Some people have small hands but prefer thicker grips. Okay, so they're naturally going to tend to be more palmy. Some players prefer stronger grips, others weaker. Some have their right hands aligned with their left, others not so much. Some feel more comfortable closer to the ball, others farther. Etc.

Respond to the Nicklaus thing, since you seem to believe it supports your point while completely misunderstanding what he meant in saying that.

Respond to the point that this is a freeze frame image and not at all how Justin Rose takes his setup position.

Respond to the countless other points raised in this thread, which you consistently fail to do, which challenge and in fact discuss the topic you started, but can't seem to discuss clearly yourself.

[Vinsk]

15 minutes ago, collapse said:

" In one sentence, what does this topic tell golfers to do? What is the idea, or thought, or whatever?"

It tells them they are fighting with the arms and hands natural tendencies by  using manipulation to try and produce a solid golf strike.

 

 

I don't agree. "Arms and hands natural tendencies" is vague at best. 

[collapse]

Q-"What are these natural tendencies?"

A-the natural angle of the lead arm/hand as mentioned.

Q-How are golfers "fighting" against them?

A-Unfortunately through a poorly, albeit difficult to explain gripping process

Q-What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"?

A-Focusing on swing form as an answer to ball striking.

 

 

[GolfLug]

I would never be able to make a swing, let alone hit the ball if there was only one functional grip or club face address. Small things adapt to big things. Tail does not wag dog.

@collapse, if have some unique difficulties on my left forearm (broken as a teenager - lack of rotation through impact, etc.) and a very unique grip to adapt to it (I jerry rigged it just so that I can go through a round without pain). Talk about unnatural. 2 years ago I was a 16+ hcp. With @iacas's help (I have been working with him in person and through My Swing thread on the site), who never changed this part of my uniqueness, addressed the larger issue of club path.

Look below (that is me from My Swing thread), same grip, two different club paths, one on the left produces a maddening duck hook that starts out right and dips in hard left, one on the right produces a straight to target, no curve ball flight.

One grip, two slightly different paths, two VERY different flights. Nothing AUTOMATIC resulting just from a grip, no matter what.  

Hope this helps.

 

 

[collapse]

6 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I don't agree. "Arms and hands natural tendencies" is vague at best. 

You refuse the look at the originally posted photo,one which is commonly acknowledged as being the natural arm hang .

[boogielicious]

8 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-"What are these natural tendencies?"

A-the natural angle of the lead arm/hand as mentioned.

Q-How are golfers "fighting" against them?

A-Unfortunately through a poorly, albeit difficult to explain gripping process

Q-What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"?

A-Focusing on swing form as an answer to ball striking.

 

 

What we are missing is how you equate the angle of the hand while standing up with one that is on the club that is moving really fast. We all think they are two different things. You seem not to.

You also seem to have the grip as the absolute most important thing in golf. Whereas, we know for a fact that there are many different grips used by great players. It is a fine tuning and not a fundamental.

This is where forum member frustration with your posts comes from. You have no scientific basis for your claims. The instructors on this site do, yet you argue that they are wrong. So we need data, video and not just a picture of JR standing holding a club. they are not proof.

[iacas]

So again, @collapse, a whole lot of nothin'. And again, refusal to respond to other things listed.

As a demonstration, here's how one could argue - in the same way that you're posting - to each of your points, @collapse:

11 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-"What are these natural tendencies?"

A-the natural angle of the lead arm/hand as mentioned.

What natural angle? Did you really mean the angle between the lead arm and hand? How does this fit in to the lie angle of the club? The fact that the shaft is often on a different plane at impact than at setup?

11 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-How are golfers "fighting" against them?

A-Unfortunately through a poorly, albeit difficult to explain gripping process

@mvmac explained how to grip a club pretty clearly. I explain to students every day how to grip a club. What's "difficult to explain" about how to grip a golf club? Cuz I just call "bullshit" on that one.

11 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"?

A-Focusing on swing form as an answer to ball striking.

I disagree. Swing form has far more to do with ballstriking than the grip. I posted above about how I could hit better golf shots than most anyone - you in particular, if your index is accurate - with all sorts of grips.

5 minutes ago, collapse said:

You refuse the look at the originally posted photo,one which is commonly acknowledged as being the natural arm hang .

Please stop acting like an idiot.

• You can't assume he didn't look at the original photo. Besides, on one side it's a freeze frame with a player rotating his hand and forearm into a position unlike both setup and impact. On the other side, it's @mvmac, who has no clue what you're talking about.
• NOBODY but you has acknowledged any of this "natural arm hang" stuff in the context of this topic, nor have you impressed upon anyone why it's important, how golfers are failing to achieve it, or how it's hurting their games.

I'm heading out. The moderation team, like most everyone here, is growing tired of your act.

Please respond directly to @boogielicious's post.

[collapse]

5 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

 

 

 

GolfLug....glad to see things have worked out for you.But in a post elsewhere I equated door hinges and the screws to the wrists and fingers,set them correctly and the door swings properly.

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-How are golfers "fighting" against them?

A-Unfortunately through a poorly, albeit difficult to explain gripping process

Explain this process more and why you think gripping the club is difficult? I have no difficulty gripping the club. I am pretty sure that I do not grip it as if my hands were just hanging naturally. 
 

10 minutes ago, collapse said:

Q-What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"?

A-Focusing on swing form as an answer to ball striking.

Well since ball striking is a product of swing path and clubface control, and the ability to bottom the club out after the ball. You would have to agree that when compared to things like gripping the club, which there is no real significant generalization stating that if you grip the club in a certain way that you will automatically improve your golf swing, that the actually motions of swinging the club are significantly more important than gripping the club. 
 

1 minute ago, collapse said:

I equated door hinges and the screws to the wrists and fingers,set them correctly and the door swings properly.

Nope. Doesn't happen. There is no significant trend to gripping the club that would automatically make the swing better or more consistent. It just doesn't happen. To think otherwise is being delusional. The fact is you have not state anything of substance to back up your claim. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, collapse said:

GolfLug....glad to see things have worked out for you.But in a post elsewhere I equated door hinges and the screws to the wrists and fingers,set them correctly and the door swings properly.

Wrong. There's nothing automatic about the grip, @mythbuster/@collapse.

I can give a 20-handicapper with a horrible grip a perfect grip and they'll still probably be a 19 handicapper.

The grip is nowhere near as magical or important as you think.