AJGA Rules Suck

[SavvySwede]

1 minute ago, dak4n6 said:

Sacrificing the character of the game by allowing caddying? How many times do you think Bones advised Phil 'yeah, you got a little quick on that one'? How about reading chips and putts? Almost like cheating.

A think a distinction needs to be made between coaching and caddying. Parents are a totally different relationship because they can more or less tell the player what to do. Caddies are advisers with a secondary status, they're not there to replace the player's judgement.

Also I'd guess only 1-2% of all golf played is with a caddie, almost everyone learned how to do it on their own first.

[dak4n6]

31 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

A think a distinction needs to be made between coaching and caddying. Parents are a totally different relationship because they can more or less tell the player what to do. Caddies are advisers with a secondary status, they're not there to replace the player's judgement.

Also I'd guess only 1-2% of all golf played is with a caddie, almost everyone learned how to do it on their own first.

Splitting hairs in that distinction IMO.If I could carry her bag, or walk along, I would tell her standard caddy stuff. 'The wind is right to left here, aim at the right side of the green and swing normally'. 'OK, put a nice tempo on this one'. 'I see 10" of break with a nice stroke'. 

To quote Harvey Firestone, "Is that so wrong?"

[Fourputt]

14 hours ago, dak4n6 said:

Splitting hairs in that distinction IMO.If I could carry her bag, or walk along, I would tell her standard caddy stuff. 'The wind is right to left here, aim at the right side of the green and swing normally'. 'OK, put a nice tempo on this one'. 'I see 10" of break with a nice stroke'. 

To quote Harvey Firestone, "Is that so wrong?"

I'd say yes, it is wrong, because she isn't really learning anything.  She is just following your instructions.  Everyone I know who learned the game very well, learned by making mistakes.  If you don't see the consequences of doing it wrong way, then you don't really understand why you are right when you do it correctly.  

To play golf at anything but the most basic level, the player needs to learn some theory and physics.  I don't mean sit down with a book, but he or she needs to have some understanding of why he/she is playing a shot in a certain manner so that it can be applied at a later time to an apparently different scenario, yet with a similar problem to overcome.

[GolfLug]

14 hours ago, dak4n6 said:

Splitting hairs in that distinction IMO.If I could carry her bag, or walk along, I would tell her standard caddy stuff. 'The wind is right to left here, aim at the right side of the green and swing normally'. 'OK, put a nice tempo on this one'. 'I see 10" of break with a nice stroke'. 

To quote Harvey Firestone, "Is that so wrong?"

I am with you on this. I am working with my kids on their game as complete beginners. Little helpful guidance and encouragement ends up being the difference in them staying somewhat focused and even good engagement for a 7-8 holes vs wanting to just quit on the 3rd hole.

36 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I'd say yes, it is wrong, because she isn't really learning anything.  She is just following your instructions.  Everyone I know who learned the game very well, learned by making mistakes.  If you don't see the consequences of doing it wrong way, then you don't really understand why you are right when you do it correctly.  

So when you tell a 15 year old to swing with a nice tempo they just do it blindly, hit a great shot (if they actually do it) and they do not reflect on how things transpired on what was said and how that worked out and in effect, learn nothing? Ok, you must be talking about a very specific type of teen. IMHO, there is difference between just doing things for them with no engagement from them whatsoever vs. a guided process where they see the cause and effect immediately. And BTW, since when did parents coaching/advise ensure they are going to do absolutely nothing wrong and hence face no consequence? Especially on a golf course!! If so, sign me up boss, I will advise the heck out of kids and we will laugh our way to the PGA tour riches since we will never have to worry about consequences, coz, when I read a break and say it is a 10" break, it is a-l-w-a-y-s............... drumroll........10"....lol !     

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

To play golf at anything but the most basic level, the player needs to learn some theory and physics.  I don't mean sit down with a book, but he or she needs to have some understanding of why he/she is playing a shot in a certain manner so that it can be applied at a later time to an apparently different scenario, yet with a similar problem to overcome.

Is all theory and physics is learned only by trial and error till 'you get it' and only way you can retain the knowledge of which direction the bullet proceeds is if you had learned the consequence of 'pointing the barrel in the wrong direction'? Ok, I'm being a bit dramatic for effect.

He is merely talking about bridging the gap till she (his daughter specifically) is confident enough and has enough fortitude to not want to quit on bad days. Really, is that so wrong?  

16 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

A think a distinction needs to be made between coaching and caddying. Parents are a totally different relationship because they can more or less tell the player what to do. Caddies are advisers with a secondary status, they're not there to replace the player's judgement.

 

You must have listened and done exactly what your parent said as a teen even if you didn't agree. lol!. Sure, caddies don't always replace the player's judgment, but you don't surely mean to say they don't influence it, and many a times heavily enough to the effect of replacement right? So what's the difference in effect?

16 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Also I'd guess only 1-2% of all golf played is with a caddie, almost everyone learned how to do it on their own first.

Not a rule though, is it? what about parental guidance? I know from the well documented exploits of a certain 14 time major champion whose father was there step to step from when they were 2. He learnt a couple of things. I am sure there are many hundreds of examples.

Not all kids, even the hardworking ones just have full blown 'character'. Some (In fact I would argue, most) have it but need some help coming into it fully. Not all parent who guide their kids are pushy/touchy parents who cannot stand the sight their precious little prince or princess EVER experience the pain of failure.

I am merely commenting on parents to children relationship in the above posts on the principle of things. So if it sounds bit off topic or having gone of the tangent then, well, so be it. I have no input about AJGA or the rules in discussion since, simply, I have no exposure to it at all. Yet.

 

[Fourputt]

I'll say this once and once only.  Tournament play is not the time for training and coaching.  All that does is slow down the pace of the competition for everyone involved.  Assuming that you actually have the skills to help and not hinder their growth, work with your kids on the range, on the putting green, during a practice 9 hole on slow times at the course.  Then let them put what they've learned to work on their own during the competition.  Give them a chance to stand on their own two feet.  If a little adversity discourages them, then maybe golf wasn't their game anyway.  

Teaching them golf is fine, but teaching them self reliance is far more important.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Tournament play is not the time for training and coaching.  

QFT...and not just for juniors either.

[SavvySwede]

4 hours ago, GolfLug said:

You must have listened and done exactly what your parent said as a teen even if you didn't agree. lol!. Sure, caddies don't always replace the player's judgment, but you don't surely mean to say they don't influence it, and many a times heavily enough to the effect of replacement right? So what's the difference in effect?

You're really going to deny there is a different dynamic of power between these two relationships? A caddy will always be a subordinate. The parent is in charge even if their child is rebellious and doesn't may not want to believe it.

[dak4n6]

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

QFT...and not just for juniors either.

Then not for pros either. Yes? Coaching and advise has even more reason to not be allowed on the pro tour because they have to 'stand on their own', and understand on their own why they are hitting a hook, and learn on their own to deal with adversity. Help me understand, using the reasoning of DiFL and 4putt, pros should not only get no caddying, but should also have sand thrown in their face or yelling and waving on every swing. If the top players in the world get on course advice, why shouldn't a 15 yr old girl who has only been playing 4 yrs get the same? 

[SavvySwede]

2 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Then not for pros either. Yes? Coaching and advise has even more reason to not be allowed on the pro tour because they have to 'stand on their own', and understand on their own why they are hitting a hook, and learn on their own to deal with adversity. Help me understand, using the reasoning of DiFL and 4putt, pros should not only get no caddying, but should also have sand thrown in their face or yelling and waving on every swing. If the top players in the world get on course advice, why shouldn't a 15 yr old girl who has only been playing 4 yrs get the same? 

One is advice the other is coaching. It just isn't the same. The main reason pros have caddies is that it saves them time. Parent coaches tend to have the opposite effect on junior tournaments.

[David in FL]

29 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Then not for pros either. Yes? Coaching and advise has even more reason to not be allowed on the pro tour because they have to 'stand on their own', and understand on their own why they are hitting a hook, and learn on their own to deal with adversity. Help me understand, using the reasoning of DiFL and 4putt, pros should not only get no caddying, but should also have sand thrown in their face or yelling and waving on every swing. If the top players in the world get on course advice, why shouldn't a 15 yr old girl who has only been playing 4 yrs get the same? 

Training and coaching, is not the same as advice.

[dak4n6]

1 minute ago, SavvySwede said:

One is advice the other is coaching. It just isn't the same. The main reason pros have caddies is that it saves them time. Parent coaches tend to have the opposite effect on junior tournaments.

Quote

 'The wind is right to left here, aim at the right side of the green and swing normally'. 'OK, put a nice tempo on this one'. 'I see 10" of break with a nice stroke'. 

 IS THIS ADVISE OR COACHING? If you call this over the top parent coaching, apparently you have never heard pros talk with their caddies. Many get a lot more involved than this. Doesn't sound like speeding up anything.

[SavvySwede]

14 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

 IS THIS ADVISE OR COACHING? If you call this over the top parent coaching, apparently you have never heard pros talk with their caddies. Many get a lot more involved than this. Doesn't sound like speeding up anything.

Apparently you have never seen all the overbearing helicopter parents at junior tournaments. Not even in the same realm.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, dak4n6 said:

Then not for pros either. Yes? Coaching and advise has even more reason to not be allowed on the pro tour because they have to 'stand on their own', and understand on their own why they are hitting a hook, and learn on their own to deal with adversity. Help me understand, using the reasoning of DiFL and 4putt, pros should not only get no caddying, but should also have sand thrown in their face or yelling and waving on every swing. If the top players in the world get on course advice, why shouldn't a 15 yr old girl who has only been playing 4 yrs get the same? 

95% of the time the pros are, at most, simply getting confirmation from the caddie that they are thinking in the right direction.  They are not expecting their caddies to tell them what shot to play and how to play it.  Any caddie who took that approach would be quickly out of work.  The pros have coaches/instructors who work with them between rounds and between tournaments, not during competitive play.  Their coaches do not caddie for them, and their caddies do not instruct them. 

 

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

content deleted because it's impossible to delete the quote box - fp

 

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Apparently you have never seen all the overbearing helicopter parents at junior tournaments. Not even in the same realm.

I once played with a kid who had his swing coach as his caddy for the round. That was a "fun" day and ended up in the coach/caddy being so overbearing on the whole group  (not even just his own player), and providing enough bad rulings, that he ended up being banned from caddying in future tournaments.

[GolfLug]

So the general consensus of all the experienced folks here is that most parents are 'helicopter' parents and when it comes to tournaments they are inexplicably incapable of using common sense, or modulating their advise to just a caddy's level (not just a few memorable ones like @Pretzel mentioned, but most or even all of them), completely disregard the basic tenants of the game like proper pace of play, use their great power over their children and inevitably start coaching and holding up play on the 5th hole to the chagrin and annoyance of everybody else involved. And the only way the parents know how to be around their children regardless of whether they are in a tournament or on a range is to do all the thinking and decision making FOR them they learn no self reliance creating soft citizens with no decision making skills. Got it. Man, these parents!! Get them outta here..!

So when it comes to tournaments, drop them off at parking lot in the morning and pick them up at 4 pm. Will do.

 

 

[phillyk]

From my POV, once you are in high school, golf tournaments don't need any parents/coaches giving advice at all.  They are at an age where the experience from having triumphs and making mistakes means so much more.  (When I was in high school, I hated being given advice during a round.  It only pissed me off more when I took the advice and played a worse shot.  If I made a mistake from my own doing, I knew that it was always on me to make it better.)  During practice days is where your coaching comes in.  However, pre-high school, I think it would be acceptable for parents to try and help, because they may not yet understand why they should choose a certain club or play a certain shot.  Also pre-high school golf should be more have fun oriented and build some golf skills versus shoot the lowest score possible.  They don't need to be a scratch golfer at 14yrs old.

As to the OP, there are many junior golf tournaments that are nationally known that you can participate in to get college recognition.  The AJGA is only one route.

[Pretzel]

8 hours ago, GolfLug said:

So when it comes to tournaments, drop them off at parking lot in the morning and pick them up at 4 pm. Will do.

That's a extreme way of saying it. I would say that the parents (if they're golfers) should work with the kids to prepare for the tournaments and help them feel confident in their abilities leading up to the tournament, but on tournament day it is often best to stick to your guns and not try to change things up in the middle of the round with advice that may hurt as much as it may help.

It has a lot to do with ensuring that the relationship between a parent and a kid isn't potentially soured because a piece of advice turned out to be the wrong one. I'm not saying that it is bad for parents to caddy or anything, just that any advice should given should be kept to the simple side of, "Hey, don't worry, your next shot still has an angle at the green," or "Yup, your read looks correct to me". Beyond that usually ends up (from my experience playing in many, many tournaments) in the parent and kid fighting with each other.

You can take it how you like, but the kids who played with their parents as a caddy seemed to play with the least amount of stress when the parent helping them actually knew very little about golf and just said small things of encouragement like that. The ones who had a parent who was just as competitive and golf savvy as the player often ended up stressed out, angry, and upset by the end of the round just due to piece of advice that ended up not working out or frustration that they seemingly couldn't live up to expectations.

I know my parents were even less involved than you described. As soon as I had my driver's license the only involvement they really had in tournaments was helping me register for them and then a phone call after the round to tell them how it went. They came to spectate certain tournaments, like parts of the state golf tournament and a couple holes of the regional tournament, but other than that I would pretty much drive myself to the tournaments, play, then phone home to say how it went. It worked out well since I felt less pressured to perform well in front of my parents, and as a result I ended up playing better overall than if they were constantly there watching and trying to give advice.

Like I said, you can go with whatever methodology you'd like to, but I would caution against being "too involved" during a tournament. Simple words of encouragement and reassurance are usually all the player is looking for when they're in stressful competition.

4 hours ago, phillyk said:

As to the OP, there are many junior golf tournaments that are nationally known that you can participate in to get college recognition.  The AJGA is only one route.

Yeah, I know that and I'm playing in those types of tournaments, but it's just a little frustrating that the AJGA excludes people who didn't get signed to a college immediately since they're some of the biggest and most widespread tournaments for the purpose of getting noticed by college coaches. I lucked out by finding a large tournament actually hosted by my college that I'll be playing in, so that should give me a good opportunity to meet and talk to the coaches.

[dak4n6]

What the heck is a 'helicopter parent'?

I guess the crux in this discussion is that some believe that all parents are 'helicopter coaches' and will just cause total widespread chaos, and some believe that parents would just do their jobs and caddy. Personally, I have never seen or experienced a 'helicopter parent', and we have played in casual and money rounds with many other parent/kid teams.