Jump to content
IGNORED

Ball likely in casual water but uncertain


Golfer2223
Note: This thread is 2948 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Many years ago I played a team match format on an odd day. The bunkers were full of casual water, sometimes six inches or so deep. We were only told to re tee if we could not rake it out or certain it was in. A playing compeitior teed off and it clearly went in, he could not rake it out but was entitled relief. I hit next and since it was hazy I could not see my ball land, one competitor thought he saw it hit the bunker. It was possible my ball went into the casual water, but it may have bounced out of the bunker, or landed just beyond the bunker, and into tall grass. We could not find the ball in grass, so I believed it was also in the water. Due to the weather I did not put up much of a fight and ran back to re tee and made a nice round ruining 8. Perhaps I should've called for an official but in the cold and pouring rain I decided to just get on with it. I believe the competitor was right in any case. 

I think if I am certain it is in the casual water, and my competitor disagrees, it goes to any other competitor or spectator, and then the committee must rule. Now that I see Justin Rose having to re tee because he cannot climb a tree to identify his ball, I am wondering if you must also find a ball when in casual water, bunker or otherwise. 

Edited by Golfer2223

Please read this thread when considering swing advice from me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Why don't you have to find it in the water to declare unplayable? I think the next rule adjustment will be if you are certain it is in the tree. It is unfair to expect a player to find either.

Edited by Golfer2223

Please read this thread when considering swing advice from me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

You need to be virtually certain your ball is in the bunker (and the casual water). Then if so, your choices are below. If not, it's a lost ball.

(ii)

In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either: 

(a)

Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or 

(b)

Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

Why don't you have to find it in the water to declare unplayable? I think the next rule adjustment will be if you are certain it is in the tree. It is unfair to expect a player to find either.

I think we are talking about a couple of different things.  First, I don't really understand the "local rule" you were given in your tournament with regards to the flooded bunkers.  When you say re tee, did they tell you to play your stroke over with no penalty.  Can't do that.

As far as declaring a ball unplayable, this is different than taking relief for Casual Water.  You may in fact declare a ball unplayable without finding it, but in this case, you must play your next stroke from the spot where you played your last.  (Stroke and Distance)  If you think about it, its the same procedure as if you were to lose your ball.  Under the ball unplayable rule there is a one stroke penalty.

Iacas gave you the rule for taking relief from casual water in a bunker.  In order to do this, it must be known or virtually certain the ball is in the casual water.

 

Edited by Dormie1360

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You're exactly right. At first I meant we were told to re tee if we could not find it, meaning unplayable stroke and distance, same as a lost ball but obviously you must call the correct penalty. But that makes no sense because it would just be a free drop if certain the ball was in. But what ACTUALLY occured was because of the cold and forecast of pouring rain (which happened) they made an odd rule where we could re tee without penalty if we saw the ball go in. So I did not do the free re tee, which someone in the group did a few holes before, beause we were not sure, AND we didn't rake it out, so it was declared a lost ball. But the other kid who did not do a re tee because he thought he saw his ball clear the sand, took a free drop without finding it, all within the rules. The bunker was on the right side of the fairway so my line was further and to the right of the kid who took the drop, who hit it straight and short. All i can vividly remember is us standing in the pouring rain and cold, dragging rakes through a bunker full of deep water, and finding every other golf ball! Crazy! 

I think you got to the real oddity where an unidentified unplayable is the same penalty as a lost ball, but called something different. Unless there is some difference? I guess if it is found before you hit the next shot you would not be able to play it where it lies in the unplayable scenario, granted you did not declare the lost ball lost yet (then no penalty). Is there any other difference? I guess both you can tee it up after the penalty, and you still can't go more than 2 clubs behind the tee markers in the unplayable scenario I believe. Wonder if there are any other differences between lost ball and unplayable but unidentified.

Please read this thread when considering swing advice from me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


4 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

Why don't you have to find it in the water to declare unplayable? I think the next rule adjustment will be if you are certain it is in the tree. It is unfair to expect a player to find either.

Casual water is an abnormal ground condition (AGC).   The idea behind getting free relief from it is that it is considered “abnormal” i.e. not a normal condition you are expected to play from.   In the same way,  an obstruction being by definition an artificial obect,  is not a natural feature of a golf course and so you get free relief from interference by one. in both cases, the relief is available even if you don’t find your ball which you would think reasonable if you knew perfectly well that your ball had gone into a large patch of casual water and disappeared from sight.

  A tree, on the other hand is a natural feature of the course and you get no favours if you put your ball up against one or in it: you have to play the ball as it lies.  If it’s in the tree, you don’t have to retrieve it in order to deem it unplayable, but you do have to identify it as yours. 

Edited by ColinL
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


46 minutes ago, Golfer2223 said:

thanks @ColinL great answer. Question: Are there any times where you can take an unplayable if you can't identify your ball, like if you can't get close enough to read the letters. I thought there were.

You use the S&D option of Rule 28 at any time you want. It doesn't matter if you can't see it, can't identify it or have it staring you in the face with your ID in dayglo pink. To use either of the other options you have to be able to identify it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


7 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

thanks @ColinL great answer. Question: Are there any times where you can take an unplayable if you can't identify your ball, like if you can't get close enough to read the letters. I thought there were.

Rulefan has helpfully qualified my answer.  I should have said that you must identify your ball if you are going to deem it unplayable and either drop within two club lengths or back along the  line from the  hole through where the ball lay.  If you can’t identify it, it is as said, back to where you played your previous stroke.

You can identify your ball without necessarily being able to read the make or your identification mark if other evidence is strong enough.  Back to that tree, for example: it could be that some spectators or players in another group were able to follow the flight of your ball and had it in sight when it came to rest in the tree.  At levels of golf way above mine, there can be television cameras which might be able to assist in identifying a ball.  

Edited by ColinL
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Interesting. It seems to me that if the ball is in a tree, even when camera follows it, they do not alllw a drop without shaking the ball loose or pulling a Faldo. This happened to Rose this season, they could see a ball with binoculars. They heard it go in the tree but not come out. Had to re tee.

Please read this thread when considering swing advice from me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
52 minutes ago, Golfer2223 said:

Interesting. It seems to me that if the ball is in a tree, even when camera follows it, they do not alllw a drop without shaking the ball loose or pulling a Faldo. This happened to Rose this season, they could see a ball with binoculars. They heard it go in the tree but not come out. Had to re tee.

If you can't identify your ball, it's lost.

Rory hit one into a tree at Kiawah Island. They knew it was his ball, but he couldn't find it. They helped him find it, and he took the unplayable and dropped beneath the tree. He was able to recover and identify his golf ball.

You can identify your golf ball with binoculars, or other means. You don't have to be able to see it up close to identify it.

  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 3 weeks later...

 

On 13 februari 2016 at 8:58 AM, Golfer2223 said:

thanks @ColinL great answer. Question: Are there any times where you can take an unplayable if you can't identify your ball, like if you can't get close enough to read the letters. I thought there were.

Yes, there is one. If it is virtualy certain your ball is lost in GUR (and your marker concurs). Sometimes flooded bunkers are (temporary) GUR. You and your marker see your ball splash in the bunker, but cannot find it. Take relief without penalty. Same when  you are not allowed to enter the GUR.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, MacDutch said:

 

Yes, there is one. If it is virtualy certain your ball is lost in GUR (and your marker concurs). Sometimes flooded bunkers are (temporary) GUR. You and your marker see your ball splash in the bunker, but cannot find it. Take relief without penalty. Same when  you are not allowed to enter the GUR.

That is not "taking an unplayable" which is Rule 28.

It is taking relief for a ball lost in an Abnormal Ground Condition. Rule 25-1c. 

Edited by Rulesman
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Note: This thread is 2948 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • Thanks for the feedback. @StuM, we are a "club without real estate" so no facilities or pro. We have a membership of around 185 players and we only play together as a group at our tournaments, which are held at public access courses. A group of us setup the tournaments, collect the money and dole out the prizes.
    • In general, granting free relief anywhere on the course isn't recommended.  Similarly, when marking GUR, the VSGA and MAPGA generally don't mark areas that are well away from the intended playing lines, no matter how poor the conditions.  If you hit it far enough offline, you don't necessarily deserve free relief.  And you don't have to damage clubs, take unplayable relief, take the stroke, and drop the ball in a better spot.
    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
    • I get trying to limit relief to the fairway, but how many roots do you typically find in the fairway? Our local rule allows for relief from roots & rocks anywhere on the course (that is in play). My home course has quite a few 100 year old oaks that separate the fairways. Lift and move the ball no closer to the hole. None of us want to damage clubs.
    • Hello, I've been playing a Teardrop td17 F.C. putter for many years and love it. It still putts and feels as good or  better than any of the new putters I've tried and it's in excellent condition except the face has dings in it ever since I bought it used that kind of bother me. I was just wondering if it's possible to have some really shallow horizontal grooves milled into the face on a "roll face" putter. I think I would rather spend some money on it instead of trying to get used to a new putter.  Thanks
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...