Anchoring foot against tee marker

[Bill926]

I played in this clubs open tournament over the weekend and one of the guys in my group would anchor his left foot against the left tee marker when teeing off.  Is this allowed?  I have never seen that before so I didn't want to say anything.  

I don't think anyone would have cared anyway because another guy kept re-aligning his ball on the green after he already picked his marker up and no one said anything.  Guess I could have brought it up at the scorers table at the end, but I wouldn't want to be "that guy".

[MacDutch]

Did he move the teemarker in the proces? That is not allowed.

If you see something in your flight and wait untill after the round to say something, in my book you are that guy. Moving or touching your ball the way you described is not allowed. Say something at the moment it happens in a polite way.

Edited March 14, 2016 by MacDutch

[wadesworld]

  On 3/14/2016 at 11:35 AM, Bill926 said:

I played in this clubs open tournament over the weekend and one of the guys in my group would anchor his left foot against the left tee marker when teeing off.  Is this allowed?  I have never seen that before so I didn't want to say anything.  

I don't think anyone would have cared anyway because another guy kept re-aligning his ball on the green after he already picked his marker up and no one said anything.  Guess I could have brought it up at the scorers table at the end, but I wouldn't want to be "that guy".

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I can see two potential problems:

1)  He could be accused of "building a stance."

2)  If the tee marker moves even the slightest bit, I would certainly rule he had intentionally moved the tee marker by placing his foot there, and thus he would be charged a two-stroke penalty.

[Bill926]

It didn't noticeably move so I would say no.

I am not that guy and wouldn't do that, but I have seen it done many times.

[Bill926]

  On 3/14/2016 at 11:53 AM, wadesworld said:

2)  If the tee marker moves even the slightest bit

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It didn't move noticeably from 10 feet away, but I'm sure it had to slightly move with the weight of the foot against it.  

[Valleygolfer]

If anything, an opportunity to get into his head was lost... You could have said that doing this, the ball must have to be in a perfect spot each time.... That's a lot to think about and then walk away....

[bkuehn1952]

The "Decisions" state that a player who moves a marker before or after a stroke in anger is not penalized, provided the player replaces the marker.  Same with accidentally tripping over one or even just picking it up and putting it back.  It seems like the Rules are not too concerned with the marker being moved except when it assists a player or changes the area of the teeing ground.

It is hard to imagine a player is going to get much support or brace from a tee marker.  By its very nature, a tee marker needs to be easily moved.  I suspect it is a psychological assist to the player. He probably draws or hooks the ball and wants to stand as far to the left as possible but without the tee marker being between his stance and the ball.

Unless the player visibly moved the tee marker, I would not be inclined to question the player or report the action.

[Martyn W]

  On 3/14/2016 at 11:35 AM, Bill926 said:

Guess I could have brought it up at the scorers table at the end, but I wouldn't want to be "that guy".

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Better to be 'that guy' than the guy who is disqualified: See D33-7/9   :http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33

[Bill926]

  On 3/14/2016 at 1:58 PM, Martyn W said:

Better to be 'that guy' than the guy who is disqualified: See D33-7/9   :http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33

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Nice to know that!  Makes sense that by not saying anything I'm allowing him to turn in an incorrect score.

This brings up a couple questions though:

Would this only involve the player and the marker?  In other words if a third payer notices it, he could essentially have both the player and the marker DQ'd at the scoring table?  Would the third player be Dq'd as well for knowingly allow the wrong score?

[Martyn W]

  On 3/14/2016 at 2:34 PM, Bill926 said:

ould this only involve the player and the marker?  In other words if a third payer notices it, he could essentially have both the player and the marker DQ'd at the scoring table?  Would the third player be Dq'd as well for knowingly allow the wrong score?

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From the Decision:  "it would be reasonable to expect a fellow-competitor or another competitor to bring to light a player's breach of the Rules by notifying the player, his marker or the Committee." (my bold) In other words, any player in the field. If you think about it, if one player returns a score two strokes lower than his true score, he is basically penalizing the whole field two strokes!

[Fourputt]

I'd not be that concerned about the tee marker if it didn't noticeably move (I certainly don't see it as building a stance if the marker doesn't move), but what he did on the green I would definitely mention to him or his marker if he had one.  Once he lifts the marker, he is not allowed to touch or move the ball unless he re-marks it.  I'd have certainly called him on that.

[jamo]

  On 3/14/2016 at 1:21 PM, bkuehn1952 said:

The "Decisions" state that a player who moves a marker before or after a stroke in anger is not penalized, provided the player replaces the marker.  Same with accidentally tripping over one or even just picking it up and putting it back.  It seems like the Rules are not too concerned with the marker being moved except when it assists a player or changes the area of the teeing ground.

It is hard to imagine a player is going to get much support or brace from a tee marker.  By its very nature, a tee marker needs to be easily moved.  I suspect it is a psychological assist to the player. He probably draws or hooks the ball and wants to stand as far to the left as possible but without the tee marker being between his stance and the ball.

Unless the player visibly moved the tee marker, I would not be inclined to question the player or report the action.

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But isn't that still, by its nature, an advantage? It seems off to me that a player would be allowed to consistently brace himself with the tee marker, even if the advantage is just psychological.

[turtleback]

  On 3/14/2016 at 11:53 AM, Bill926 said:

It didn't noticeably move so I would say no.

I am not that guy and wouldn't do that, but I have seen it done many times.

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Due respect, but you ARE that guy -- to the rest of the field who you are supposed to be protecting.  Maybe not on the tee marker thing, although you should have raised the question, but definitely on the the adjusting of the an unmarked ball on the green.  

But you bring it up immediately, not at the scorer's table after saying nothing during the round.  

[Fourputt]

Nothing wrong with that as long as he doesn't add anything to it or move it.  If he was to wad up a towel and place it against the marker, then press against that, I'd take issue with it, but he's simply using something that's already part of the course.  Anyone else could do the same if they chose to do so.  

I don't really see how it would be much a help anyway.  It would be difficult to tee your ball in exactly the right spot so that you wouldn't have to mess with your stance to make a swing.  It could even impede him getting on his left side through the swing.

[bkuehn1952]

  On 3/14/2016 at 3:29 PM, jamo said:

But isn't that still, by its nature, an advantage? It seems off to me that a player would be allowed to consistently brace himself with the tee marker, even if the advantage is just psychological.

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The Rules don't recognize mental interference (e.g. one is bothered by a sprinkler head close to one's ball but not truly interfering with a stroke).  On that basis, I would conclude that something that truly does not support or brace his stance and is merely a mental crutch would not be in breach of the Rules.

It is certainly a fine line and the player, to be perfectly safe, probably should make sure he does not actually touch the marker.  

[jamo]

  On 3/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, Fourputt said:

Nothing wrong with that as long as he doesn't add anything to it or move it.  If he was to wad up a towel and place it against the marker, then press against that, I'd take issue with it, but he's simply using something that's already part of the course.  Anyone else could do the same if they chose to do so.  

I don't really see how it would be much a help anyway.  It would be difficult to tee your ball in exactly the right spot so that you wouldn't have to mess with your stance to make a swing.  It could even impede him getting on his left side through the swing.

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  On 3/14/2016 at 4:46 PM, bkuehn1952 said:

The Rules don't recognize mental interference (e.g. one is bothered by a sprinkler head close to one's ball but not truly interfering with a stroke).  On that basis, I would conclude that something that truly does not support or brace his stance and is merely a mental crutch would not be in breach of the Rules.

It is certainly a fine line and the player, to be perfectly safe, probably should make sure he does not actually touch the marker.  

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I just don't see how it's physically possible to put your foot up against it, swing a golf club, and not move it, unless we're getting into an "oscillation" argument here. The rules against building your stance are always applied so liberally that it would stun me if you could use a tee marker to brace your foot.

[Bill926]

  On 3/14/2016 at 4:31 PM, Fourputt said:

 It would be difficult to tee your ball in exactly the right spot so that you wouldn't have to mess with your stance to make a swing.

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it was part of his setup routine.  He would put his foot against the marker and set the ball from there, adjusting it until it was good.

  On 3/14/2016 at 4:29 PM, turtleback said:

Due respect, but you ARE that guy -- to the rest of the field who you are supposed to be protecting.  Maybe not on the tee marker thing, although you should have raised the question, but definitely on the the adjusting of the an unmarked ball on the green.  

But you bring it up immediately, not at the scorer's table after saying nothing during the round.  

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Looking back on it now i should have said something on the first green, but still I'd never purposely wait until the end of the round and then bring it up.  

[Fourputt]

  On 3/14/2016 at 5:05 PM, jamo said:

 

I just don't see how it's physically possible to put your foot up against it, swing a golf club, and not move it, unless we're getting into an "oscillation" argument here. The rules against building your stance are always applied so liberally that it would stun me if you could use a tee marker to brace your foot.

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It is if you have lousy foot and leg action in your swing.  I've known guys whose feet never moved during their swing.    

It also sounds like it took him a lot of fiddling around to get set up right, so I might have cautioned him about undue delay - although I'm not always terribly polite if I get sufficiently frustrated.  ("For God's sake, quit screwing around and hit the blanking ball!!!")