why so many tee boxes

[boogielicious]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Hey now ... I didn't say I didn't want to PLAY with people of much different handicaps, just that I didn't want to COMPETE against them. 

In bowling leagues, when you played the team of 90 year old women who all averaged 85, all you needed was for one of them to throw a couple of strikes or spares in a game and you were gonna get waxed.  Obviously, it averages out over time, which is why the competition is possible, but it's still not all that exciting to "lose" a game to somebody who threw a 104 to your 185.

So you're saying you would rather be in a bowling league with 90 year old women than competing against me? This is getting even more discouraging! 

[Dave2512]

I don't sweat it if people get lucky in league. Not a lot riding on it for sure. If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't be in the clubhouse bragging over beer how I beat the c-flight guy via strokes assist shooting my season best 98 to his 80 or whatever

[pumaAttack]

21 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Because it's not just two levels. We have a couple guys at scratch or better and four flights all the way up to 36 handicap with 160+ members. There are just 10-12 guys in championship flight, 9 handicap or better, and tournaments get roughly 60% participation total. Wouldn't make much more sense to have the half dozen guys in championship flight that enter the tournaments slugging it out with the one + handicap guy either.

If the member's handicaps are legit it should shake out. The unknown is people have good and bad days and dumb luck. It's a lot easier for a higher handicap golfer to get lucky and have a good day than it is for someone with a tighter dispersion of scores. It can go the other way too. The 11 handicap that draws a 6 handicap has to play better than average to win that match.

 

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

I meant the A teams play each other and the D teams player each other.  Same with the B and C groups.  You never have a D league team playing a higher skill level opponent.  That is what I mean with the two levels playing each other.  The handicapping is done to determine what level you fall into, not to change the outcome of the game itself.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that a guy shooting 90 can "defeat" a guy shooting 77.  

[Dave2512]

19 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that a guy shooting 90 can "defeat" a guy shooting 77.  

He didn't he played better than his handicap. If his opponent had done the same he wins. That's pretty much what handicaps are for. It's the only way golfers of different skill can compete.

I'd be no more or less excited if I was playing against the best guy in our league or the other mid single digit guys. Still have to go out and play best I can and there is always happenstance waiting to bite. 

Doesn't really matter anyway. Typically the higher handicap guys are scared shitless if they draw a championship flight guy. They aren't thinking I get X strokes they are sweating playing a guy that regularly breaks 80.

[DaveP043]

57 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

That just seems silly to me...

It would be like an A level (played college/junior hockey) hockey team playing a D level team (just beginning to play the game).  With the A team giving up 10 goals to start the game. 

Why not just play the two levels against each other... If you need more tournaments than that sounds better than a 22 handicap difference...

This is one way that golf (and bowling) are different from almost every other sport.  In most sports, you're pitting yourself in direct competition to your opponent, and superior ability can completely overwhelm a poorer team or player.  With golf, you're competing as an individual against the course, and then comparing your results to the other players.  For most sports, I don't think there's any way to fairly handicap things so that widely disparate groups can compete directly against each other.  Handicaps in golf DO allow that competition, and do a reasonably good job of making the results balance out over time.  I'm playing to a 5 right now, and I beat my wife (playing off 15) in about half the matches we play against each other.  And trust me, we almost always keep track of a match when we play together, just for fun.  

I understand the basis for adjusting handicaps when playing from different tees, and it makes sense statistically to me, but I think it really only works out right when players play most of their rounds from the same tee as they're using in the competition.  Take an older, but still long-hitting player, a guy playing most of the time from the regular men's tees, and allow him to move to the senior tees for a competition, and he may gain more of an advantage than the calculated reduction in handicap strokes will offset.  Conversely, if we were to force the short-hitting seniors to move back to the regular tees for competitions, they might be disadvantaged more severely than the increased handicap strokes would indicate.  That's the problem with applying statistics to real-life situations, they're fair to an large overall population, but can be unfair in individual circumstances.

[pumaAttack]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is one way that golf (and bowling) are different from almost every other sport.  In most sports, you're pitting yourself in direct competition to your opponent, and superior ability can completely overwhelm a poorer team or player.  With golf, you're competing as an individual against the course, and then comparing your results to the other players.  For most sports, I don't think there's any way to fairly handicap things so that widely disparate groups can compete directly against each other.  Handicaps in golf DO allow that competition, and do a reasonably good job of making the results balance out over time.  I'm playing to a 5 right now, and I beat my wife (playing off 15) in about half the matches we play against each other.  And trust me, we almost always keep track of a match when we play together, just for fun.  

 

But what about match play?  You are playing the opponent there, not the course.  If your opponent makes a bogey and you got a birdie, it seems silly to half that hole.   I get why they do it, just seems like in match play you should only play people in your same flight.

[Dave2512]

Funny thing is in league guys happily move up if that's where their flight plays. Out of league almost all guys are back on tips. I don't get it that is the real WTF to me. If you understand the benefit why not play where you score best all the time? I am less frustrated giving strokes to higher handicap guys in league than watching them bat it around the course from the tips and being stuck behind them on Sat. afternoon.

One thing I've noticed is in the winter when they pull up the markers men gravitate towards the middle box. That tells me when nobody will notice golfers want to play from where they stand a chance to score. Tells me colors and where matters.

[DaveP043]

Just now, pumaAttack said:

But what about match play?  You are playing the opponent there, not the course.  If your opponent makes a bogey and you got a birdie, it seems silly to half that hole.   I get why they do it, just seems like in match play you should only play people in your same flight.

To the first bit, you're still playing the course, its not like you can body-block your opponent as he swings.  You're just comparing your scores more often.

I definitely prefer to play matches against people of similar abilities, but I've played against both better players and higher-handicap players, and I still enjoy the matches.  I always feel like if I play well, I'm probably going to win, no matter who my opponent is.  If I play poorly, I have to get lucky to win.  If I was to go into a match feeling that its "unfair" to give up a bunch of strokes, I've already lost.

[pumaAttack]

22 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To the first bit, you're still playing the course, its not like you can body-block your opponent as he swings.  You're just comparing your scores more often.

 

Not really, not in match play. 

If your opponent eagles a hole you have to match that score.  You aren't just comparing scores you have to match them on each hole.

If you are a 22 handicap and your opponent, a 4 handicap, booms one down the middle leaving an easy chip to get up and down, you now have to change your approach.   There isn't 17 other holes to make up the strokes, there is only that one hole.

But if your opponent is the same skill level, your shots will be more closely related and that added pressure won't be there.

Edited March 29, 2016 by pumaAttack

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, pumaAttack said:

Not really, not in match play. 

If your opponent eagles a hole you have to match that score.  You aren't just comparing scores you have to match them on each hole.

If you are a 22 handicap and your opponent, a 4 handicap, booms one down the middle leaving an easy chip to get up and down, you now have to change your approach.   There isn't 17 other holes to make up the strokes, there is only that one hole.

So I'm getting a stroke a hole, and my opponent has a chance to make 3.  I need to make 4, which is what I was aiming to make all along.  But I'm not physically competing against him.  I'm not trying to throw a pitch past him, I don't have to chase down and return his topspin lob, I don't have to tackle him, I just have to compare my score for the hole against his.  And if I keep my drive in play, and somehow skull my second into the middle of the green, he HAS to get up and down to tie.  If we've learned anything from the information presented at TST, we've learned that his advantage over my decreases as we get closer to the hole.  

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not trying to throw a pitch past him, I don't have to chase down and return his topspin lob, I don't have to tackle him, ...  

Apparently @iacas and @mvmac have not included you in the discussions of the modified local rules for Newport Cup 2017??  (That's good - it just means your prep isn't going to be as thorough.)

[pumaAttack]

14 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Apparently @iacas and @mvmac have not included you in the discussions of the modified local rules for Newport Cup 2017??  (That's good - it just means your prep isn't going to be as thorough.)

Reminds me of those FSN commercials from the 90s.

A golfer would be about to swing and get cross checked during his backswing.

"Golf would be better, if it were hockey" 

50 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To the first bit, you're still playing the course, its not like you can body-block your opponent as he swings.  You're just comparing your scores more often.

I definitely prefer to play matches against people of similar abilities, but I've played against both better players and higher-handicap players, and I still enjoy the matches.  I always feel like if I play well, I'm probably going to win, no matter who my opponent is.  If I play poorly, I have to get lucky to win.  If I was to go into a match feeling that its "unfair" to give up a bunch of strokes, I've already lost.

I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree. :)

[Fourputt]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

You're blowing my mind here @Golfingdad

In UK the only times people would be competing against each other off different tees is when it is a mixed (male/female) tournament.

Theoretically, handicaps are expected to sort out the differences if everyone plays the same tees, but it doesn't always work very well.  Two players, both with the same handicap, but one is a strong 21 year old, while the other is 72.  both established there handicap from the white tees.  The 21 can move back to the blues for a competition and maybe lose a couple of strokes, but he still has the length to compete.  The 72 moves back to the blues and half the par 4 holes are now unreachable for him.  His short straight game is now a liability instead of an asset.  

I had exactly this situation in my first scramble in the men's club in 1989.  Our "A" player was 72, and all "A" players were required to play the blue tees.  "B" "C"and "D" players went from the whites, and "E" from the reds.  We had to use each player's tee shot once each 9 holes.  For whatever reason, Charlie's tee shot was still unused when we got to 18, so we had no choice.  He hit a good shot, but because it was only about 190 yards, the best we could do was a bogey, and we missed tying for first by one stroke.  We still took 3rd, but it was a case where a good player was severely handicapped by playing the same tees as others in the same handicap range.  The additional 2 strokes that he received on his course handicap did not come close to making up for the added length of the course.

[Dave2512]

Amateurs hit so many poor shots I doubt any ability related length is a significant advantage in anything but a scramble. I get paired with young 20 handicappers in league that can hit it past me but it's not a regular occurrence. They will still shoot a bad score.

No joke I played with a guy last year that hit his drive into a pond some 350 yards away from the tee on the 1st hole. Two holes later he scabbed it so bad he didn't clear reds. When they are going for greens on the 300 yard par 4's I am hitting my 5 iron over their duff.

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Theoretically, handicaps are expected to sort out the differences if everyone plays the same tees, but it doesn't always work very well.  Two players, both with the same handicap, but one is a strong 21 year old, while the other is 72.  both established there handicap from the white tees.  The 21 can move back to the blues for a competition and maybe lose a couple of strokes, but he still has the length to compete.  The 72 moves back to the blues and half the par 4 holes are now unreachable for him.  His short straight game is now a liability instead of an asset.  

I had exactly this situation in my first scramble in the men's club in 1989.  Our "A" player was 72, and all "A" players were required to play the blue tees.  "B" "C"and "D" players went from the whites, and "E" from the reds.  We had to use each player's tee shot once each 9 holes.  For whatever reason, Charlie's tee shot was still unused when we got to 18, so we had no choice.  He hit a good shot, but because it was only about 190 yards, the best we could do was a bogey, and we missed tying for first by one stroke.  We still took 3rd, but it was a case where a good player was severely handicapped by playing the same tees as others in the same handicap range.  The additional 2 strokes that he received on his course handicap did not come close to making up for the added length of the course.

Interesting.  In the amtour events I sometimes play I sometimes rhetorically ponder to myself "why do they need to have a set of senior flights if the flights are all handicap based?  It shouldn't matter!"

I stand corrected. :)

[newtogolf]

3 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

I meant the A teams play each other and the D teams player each other.  Same with the B and C groups.  You never have a D league team playing a higher skill level opponent.  That is what I mean with the two levels playing each other.  The handicapping is done to determine what level you fall into, not to change the outcome of the game itself.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that a guy shooting 90 can "defeat" a guy shooting 77.  

If the tournament is flighted that's how it works.  The problem still doesn't get resolved because there's usually a 10 stroke range in handicaps within each flight.  C Flight in my club is 21-36, B Flight is 11-20, A Flight is 0-10.   A Flight plays from Championship Tees, rest play from Mens Tees.  

The "Club Championship" can only be won by the A Flight and handicaps are only used to determine your flight no strokes are given in it.  B and C Flights use handicap to determine flight and players are given strokes based on handicap.   Given there's a wide range of handicaps in each flight, you could still give up a significant number of strokes, especially in C Flight where a 21 handicap player competes against a 36.  

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

If the tournament is flighted that's how it works.  The problem still doesn't get resolved because there's usually a 10 stroke range in handicaps within each flight.  C Flight in my club is 21-36, B Flight is 11-20, A Flight is 0-10.   A Flight plays from Championship Tees, rest play from Mens Tees.  

The "Club Championship" can only be won by the A Flight and handicaps are only used to determine your flight no strokes are given in it.  B and C Flights use handicap to determine flight and players are given strokes based on handicap.   Given there's a wide range of handicaps in each flight, you could still give up a significant number of strokes, especially in C Flight where a 21 handicap player competes against a 36.  

Right.  If you split up the flights enough to keep everyone really close in skill level then you risk having flights with one or two or three people in them.  In a perfect world, sure, everybody plays a bunch of others of the same skill level, but that's just not always possible.  It is what it is.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Apparently @iacas and @mvmac have not included you in the discussions of the modified local rules for Newport Cup 2017??  (That's good - it just means your prep isn't going to be as thorough.)

I'm not worried, the tentative plans sound like we'll be playing on my home turf.  Take advantage of me, and I'll keep my secret dining places secret.