Club Eliminated Championship Tees

[boil3rmak3r]

The private Club I am a member of has a Committee that makes golf related decisions.  Apparently, this Committee has been hearing complaints from some members that golfers who play from the White tees are at a greater advantage than those that play from the Black tees. 

Our club's website is www.crawfordsvillecountryclub.com.  If you look at our scorecard, you will see the information for the White and Black tees:

White tees:  5,859 yds; 68.1 Rating; 116 Slope
Black tees:  6,188 yds; 69.8 Rating; 120 Slope

The course is a par 70 from the White and Black (or Championship) tees.

Apparently, some of the better golfers of the club have moved up to the White tees and the Black tee golfers have complained about this.  Our Committee's response to this?  They eliminated White and Black tees altogether.  They now have the course set up with one set of men's tees (the senior tees were kept in place).  Now, they alternate every 3rd tee to be closer than Whites, at the Whites, and at the Blacks.  They expect every male golfer who doesn't play the senior tees to play these tees.

While I'm not a great golfer, I want to play the Black tees.  It challenges me the degree that I want to be challenged.  Plus, while the Black tees are our "Championship" tees, the yardage is still relatively short.  Twelve of our holes really don't matter whether you play from the Black tees or the White tees, they may just be a club, or so.  But, 6 of the holes are really different in that they are more challenging from the Black tees.

I invite my father to play with me 5 or 6 times per year at my course.  He is 64 and has always played the White tees at my course.  He is not ready to move up to the senior tees.  With his distance, there are 5 or 6 holes that would kill him if he had to play from the Black tees.  With our new set up, he'll be forced to do that....  Plus, there was a way for us to somewhat equalize our distance variances by having me play further from him.  Now, we are supposed to play from the same distances on every hole.

Since we are now supposed to play from these arbitrary lengths, I asked the Club Pro how we were to record scores for handicap purposes.  He said that I should just use the White Ratings. 

Bottom line, I told the Pro and the Committee that I will continue to play the "Black" tees and will record my score per the Black tee ratings.  I will simply play from where the Club usually had the Black tee markers at.  Furthermore, when I play with my father, I'll play the "Black" tees and he will play the "White" tees - based on my knowledge of where those tees have always been.  The Pro told me that he agreed with me and encouraged me to do that.  The Committee has yet to respond to me...

I believe in the course rating system.  Our course was officially rated years ago.  Based on ratings, the Black tee players receive two strokes from White tee players in tournaments.  I accept that.  It is how the system works....

What do you think about this?  Have you ever had this happen at your course?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MasonAsher2014]

Interesting topic. I myself play the good ole' CCC as I play for Wabash and I had wondered why I kept seeing only one set of tees. It's interesting they eliminated them because as you said, it is not long at all. I can see how the members would think so but in my opinion the difference is negligible. What are the men that only play the whites going to think when the tee is all the way back on #8? I would do exactly what you do, play where I know the blacks are all the time. I know I will.

[Grumpter]

I don't like their 'solution'. The complaining players could simply play some rounds from the white tee's if they thought it was such an advantage.

[saevel25]

8 hours ago, boil3rmak3r said:

I believe in the course rating system.  Our course was officially rated years ago.  Based on ratings, the Black tee players receive two strokes from White tee players in tournaments.  I accept that.  It is how the system works....

What do you think about this?  Have you ever had this happen at your course?

If they got rid of the tees then they should have the course re-evaluated for slope and rating. 

Also, why not just mandate the tournaments be on the white tees? 

They could just use the handicap rules for having split tees. 

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387

Quote

 c. Players Competing From Different Tees or Men and Women From Same Tees

(i) Different Tees: Men vs. Men; Women vs. Women; Women vs. Men 
Different tees usually have different ratings. Since a USGA Course Rating reflects the probable scores of scratch golfers, the higher-rated course is more difficult, and the player playing from the set of tees with the higher USGA Course Rating receives additional stroke(s) equal to the difference between each USGA Course Rating, with the resulting figure rounded off to the nearest whole number (.5 or more is rounded upward). (See Decision 3-5/1.) 

Example 1: If men playing from the middle tees, from which the men's USGA Course Rating is 70.3, compete against men playing from the back tees, from which the men's USGA Course Rating is 72.6, the men playing from the back tees will add two strokes (72.6 - 70.3 = 2.3 rounded to 2) to Course Handicap.

Yes, your tournament set up has it right. Since your course ratings produce a difference of 1.7 strokes, you round up to 2 strokes. That should cover everything associated with the difference in using two sets of tees for a tournament. 

 

 

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, boil3rmak3r said:

Since we are now supposed to play from these arbitrary lengths, I asked the Club Pro how we were to record scores for handicap purposes.  He said that I should just use the White Ratings. 

 

28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If they got rid of the tees then they should have the course re-evaluated for slope and rating. 

@saevel25 is absolutely right, if they change the course in this way, they're required to have the course re-rated.  On a temporary basis, Rule 5.2.g in the USGA Handicap Manual allows an estimate of the appropriate Rating and Slope to be made, based on the difference in yardage from the previously rated tees.  You may want to direct your pro to this rule.

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14379

 

[boil3rmak3r]

8 hours ago, MasonAsher2014 said:

Interesting topic. I myself play the good ole' CCC as I play for Wabash and I had wondered why I kept seeing only one set of tees. It's interesting they eliminated them because as you said, it is not long at all. I can see how the members would think so but in my opinion the difference is negligible. What are the men that only play the whites going to think when the tee is all the way back on #8? I would do exactly what you do, play where I know the blacks are all the time. I know I will.

You mention #8.  I can name a number of others that will give traditional white tee players fits when the tees are back.  They'll dunk many more balls into the creek on #3; #4 will be unreachable for some; some will not even get their tee ball to the fairway on #12; forget about #18 when the tees are all the way back.  The trees will block many from even having a go at the green in regulation.

Good luck with your schooling and golf at Wabash!

1 hour ago, Grumpter said:

I don't like their 'solution'. The complaining players could simply play some rounds from the white tee's if they thought it was such an advantage.

It really is that simple.  I have no idea why the Committee has done this.

38 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If they got rid of the tees then they should have the course re-evaluated for slope and rating. 

Also, why not just mandate the tournaments be on the white tees? 

They could just use the handicap rules for having split tees. 

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14387

Yes, your tournament set up has it right. Since your course ratings produce a difference of 1.7 strokes, you round up to 2 strokes. That should cover everything associated with the difference in using two sets of tees for a tournament. 

 

 

In the email I sent to the Committee, I referred to and linked the same information you linked above.  I also mentioned that the course would need to be re-rated. 

For tournaments, they had already gone to one set of tees.  Beginning last year, they started requiring all non-senior tee players to play from the White tees (they still had the Black tees last year).  Which begs the question, why does the Committee feel comfortable allowing Green tee players to still compete from where they do?  The logic makes no sense to me.

It's also funny that I have been told the Black tees will be in place one weekend out of the year.  That weekend will be during the Club Championship.  Championship flight competitors will be required to play from the Black tees during that tournament.  So, I am not supposed to play the course from the "tips" all year long, but once the tournament comes around, I'll be required to.

I all just baffles me...

[Dave2512]

Club politics, never surprised no matter how goofy. 

[SavvySwede]

1.7 strokes on the CR for 329 yards sounds reasonable to me. Even if it weren't, removing a set of tees is such a dumb solution. So much wasted real estate.

[Jeremie Boop]

It seems like they did something similar at one of the courses I play regularly. There used to be a set of black tees behind the whites. These back tees increased yardage by 500 and rating from 70.2/121 to 72.5/126. So far this year I have not seen any of the black tee markers but I have seen the white tees placed anywhere from the most forward white tees would be to the furthest back the black tees could be. I personally enjoy this, because it allows me more variety playing from the white tees than I would typically get, but it does seem to change the overall difficulty of the round depending on the placement of the tees. I don't know that it's the full 2+ strokes difference but it is more difficult. I don't know if they just pulled the back tees temporarily or if it's permanent, I may have to inquire about that next time I go out there to play.

[boil3rmak3r]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 1:29 AM, MasonAsher2014 said:

Interesting topic. I myself play the good ole' CCC as I play for Wabash and I had wondered why I kept seeing only one set of tees. It's interesting they eliminated them because as you said, it is not long at all. I can see how the members would think so but in my opinion the difference is negligible. What are the men that only play the whites going to think when the tee is all the way back on #8? I would do exactly what you do, play where I know the blacks are all the time. I know I will.

I don't know if you've been to the course lately, but they have put the White and Black tees back in place.  Apparently, there were quite a few White tee players who were complaining.  On one particular day, the Club had the tees as far back as they could go on #18.  On top of that, it was a rainy day and you got virtually no roll out on your drives.  So, most of the guys were not able to get their drives to the dogleg and, essentially, had to play the hole as a short par 5.

[RickK]

Personally, sounds to me like it was a stupid decision.  Having said that, I have served on several golf related committees, MGA boards, and served many years as President of a golf league.  What I have learned is that if you do not have a good mix of players on a committee, you get one-sided decisions.  You will never please everyone.  And, when someone complains to me, I listen to them and tell them the best way to enact change is to lobby to get on the committee, board, or run for office.  

But CCC needs to have their course re-rated.  However, I hate to see any club get re-rated and then start moving the tees up (or back).  I play at one such club and if I played there all the time, my handicap would never travel.  Their tee markers are black (back), blue, white, gold, red(forward).  They added length to a lot of holes and created the black tees.  In doing this, they moved the blue and white tees back from their original locations.  Then they had the course rated.  Course rating for the white tees came in quite a bit higher.  Well, most MGA tournaments are held from the white tees.  The members complained loudly about the added length so the club gave in a moved most of the white tees back to where they originally were.  So, now, you play a course from the white that used to have a slope rating of 125 but is now 130 (from basically the same teeing area).  Kills your handicap.

Get on that committee and get it changed!!!

[kpaulhus]

Sounds like the golf committee is aging. No offense, but 6000 yards is hardly "championship". My old club in Jacksonville changed their Saturday game to the blended men's tees from the championship since most of the players were over 55 and couldn't hit it as far anymore. 

Im fortunate that at my current club we have a few + handicaps that can really pound it and take full advantage of our 7,000 yd championship tees.