Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting

[newtogolf]

2 minutes ago, phan52 said:

Nobody on the planet would be more scrutinized than the refugees coming here from the Middle East. The refugee situation is tragic and the US needs to be more involved since it is pretty obvious that the whole thing was caused by our ignorant intervention in the region. We need to focus more on homegrown terrorists and people coming here with legal immigration status. 100% of them fit in those categories.

Based on what I've read, the problem with the refugees seems to be how little background information there is on them.  Many don't have identification and there isn't a database to verify they are who they claim to be.  

[Dave2512]

The refugee situation is tragic but the solution isn't bringing them to the US. The ME has always been unstable.

[phan52]

20 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Based on what I've read, the problem with the refugees seems to be how little background information there is on them.  Many don't have identification and there isn't a database to verify they are who they claim to be.  

They are refugees. Almost all have left their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs.The vast majority of them are women, children or elderly. It is a crime for the US to not be more involved because, as I said, we caused it in the first place by invading and occupying a sovereign country on nothing but lies. None of the people, including the creep in Orlando, were refugees. The 9/11 terrorists were all legal immigrants. The Boston bombers, Fort Hood, San Bernadino, Orlando . . . they were all citizens or legal residents. Any young man in the refugee program would be under more scrutiny than anybody, and rightfully so. Not a very good vehicle to use for entry.

Edited June 21, 2016 by phan52

[Lihu]

We can't take away the rights of people because of their faith or ethnicity because we are emotionally distraught by this shooting. We also can't take away the rights of gun owners.

 

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

The SCOTUS refusal to address the state restrictions is indication that it's not ready to rule on states rights and constitutional infringement on "assault weapons", but it also means they are not supporting a federal ban either.  

This is how I saw it, and agree.

 

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Only if the process is brought before a judge and the person is given due process. 

The Constitution demands such. 

Right, we should not be so ready to take away anyone's rights no matter what side of the argument we're on.

 

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I agree 100% with due process, though I'm not sure it extends to those in the country illegally or on travel VISA.  

Due process extends to everyone in the United States legal or illegal.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/illegalrights.htm

Kind of close to home for me: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/118/356.html

 

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I believe the Constitution has always been law of the land. As such it governs all people.

Yes, and it applies to everyone.

 

Quote

Also it took the Aliens and Sedition act to retract certain Constitution rights for immigrants. So I suspect in that regard you can argue that in reverse that if they can isolated out people from Constitution rights then they have them to begin 

I find this pretty reprehensible, and it has historical precedence which was later found unconstitutional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

It took until 2012 for us to officially acknowledge that it was wrong:

Quote

On June 18, 2012, the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution introduced by Congresswoman Judy Chu, that formally expresses the regret of the House of Representatives for the Chinese Exclusion Act, which imposed almost total restrictions on Chinese immigration and naturalization and denied Chinese-Americans basic freedoms because of their ethnicity.^[26] The resolution had been approved by the U.S. Senate in October 2011.^[27]

 

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Exactly which is what I think they use to justify the lack of due process for the No-Fly  and Terror Watch list.  

Agree, but it still needs to respect and allow the rights of any people living within our borders.

[newtogolf]

53 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Agree, but it still needs to respect and allow the rights of any people living within our borders.

It needs to but it doesn't.  People on the No-Fly list have no idea they are on it rightly or wrongly until they attempt to fly.  I have no idea how you determine if you're on the Terror Watch list.  

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

It needs to but it doesn't.  People on the No-Fly list have no idea they are on it rightly or wrongly until they attempt to fly.

Exactly, and some people are on it or at least as a "selectee" for possibly the most arbitrary reasons. No, thanks. I'd rather they redo the list correctly with evidence to back each and every single case.

 

Quote

Several Republican presidential candidates cite Ted Kennedy as a reason why they oppose President Obama’s proposal to block the sale of guns to known or suspected terrorists on the no-fly list. Kennedy, after all, was mistakenly placed on the government’s no-fly list, they say. But the Transportation Security Administration calls that a “myth.”

It has been reported many times that Kennedy had trouble boarding planes several times in 2004 allegedly because he was on a no-fly list. But the TSA in 2008 said the former Democratic senator from Massachusetts was “NOT on the no-fly or selectee lists.” Kennedy was “misidentified” as someone on the “selectee list.” Those on the selectee list “must undergo additional security screening before being permitted to board.” Kennedy ultimately boarded his flights and didn’t miss any flights.

Not a myth, apparently. They even admitted to it in the same paragraph that they denied it. . .

Misidentifying one of the most iconic figures in US History is not something I would do. I'd hate to have been the idiot(s) that stopped and attempted to perform additional "screening" on him.

 

Quote

I have no idea how you determine if you're on the Terror Watch list.  

Yeah,not likely to find this list anywhere. . . 

[CR McDivot]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:42 PM, Dave2512 said:

He spoke in Arabic, they translated all of that to English. Allah, God, Dios it's all the same thing right.

I posted a response to this. Care to explain why it was deleted?

Could it be too politically incorrect on TST to explain the difference between Allah and Jehovah?

Between Islam (a well proven death cult), and Christianity which offers life to the dead?

[Patch]

Several years ago, when highjackings were just starting, I flew from Vegas to Houston. As I was at the check in counter, I did something, or said something that sent up a red flag. I was given my ticket, and along with that I had a yellow 4" circle attached to my carry on. I was told not to take it off. I made the round trip, but at each check in, I was taken a side, and all but cavity searched. I even was given a hard time for 2 pieces of rolled up chewing gum tin foil found by a metal detector on my person. Everytime I asked why the extra attention, I was told to basically be quiet. I never did find out what said or did to warrant the extra attention. The yellow circle on my carry on made me out to be a risk of some sort. 

[CR McDivot]

Orlando was not about firearms. Orlando was not about a LBGT dance hall.

Orlando was not about civil or natural rights supposedly protected by our Constitution.

Orlando was about a devout Muslim acting upon the dictates of his "holy Koran" and the preaching at his oft attended Mosque.

Face it, folks!

Edited June 22, 2016 by CR McDivot

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

I posted a response to this. Care to explain why it was deleted?

Could it be too politically incorrect on TST to explain the difference between Allah and Jehovah?

Between Islam (a well proven death cult), and Christianity which offers life to the dead?

Off topic. We are not discuss the definition of words.

[phan52]

10 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Orlando was not about firearms. Orlando was not about a LBGT dance hall.

Orlando was not about civil or natural rights supposedly protected by our Constitution.

Orlando was about a devout Muslim acting upon the dictates of his "holy Koran" and the preaching at his oft attended Mosque.

Face it, folks!

Wrong. Like most home grown terrorists, this guy was self radicalized by looking for things on the internet, in particular, the lectures of Anwar al-Awlaki.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/

 I wondered how he could have radicalized. Both Omar and I attended the same mosque as Moner, and the imam never taught hate or radicalism. That’s when Omar told me he had been watching videos of Awlaki, too, which immediately raised red flags for me.

 

[Lihu]

10 minutes ago, phan52 said:

Wrong. Like most home grown terrorists, this guy was self radicalized by looking for things on the internet, in particular, the lectures of Anwar al-Awlaki.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/20/i-reported-omar-mateen-to-the-fbi-trump-is-wrong-that-muslims-dont-do-our-part/

 I wondered how he could have radicalized. Both Omar and I attended the same mosque as Moner, and the imam never taught hate or radicalism. That’s when Omar told me he had been watching videos of Awlaki, too, which immediately raised red flags for me.

Agree, and it's pretty much what I've been saying. This tragedy has little to faith. We need to get off the blame game and start figuring out technological solutions that can protect us and not violate any of our rights.

The quote about not knowing what everyone is thinking holds true. Even some people don't know what they are thinking themselves. They're confused.

The other thing is that our government, as large as it is, failed to do anything even when given evidence. It was asleep at the wheel. It was doing things for it's own agenda.

Our government is big, dumb and complacent. This tragedy could have been prevented, but not by blaming Muslims and guns.

[Dave2512]

And as this develops it starting to come to light he may have been bisexual. Nothing wrong with that but in his world it certainly could have created issues. He slipped through the cracks right up to the failed body armor purchase.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

And as this develops it starting to come to light he may have been bisexual. Nothing wrong with that but in his world it certainly could have created issues. He slipped through the cracks right up to the failed body armor purchase.

This kind of bugs me too. Why is he able to hold such a critical position at an armed security agency while passing all the psychiatric tests and yet is not able to personally purchase body armor in a relatively lax state for gun control? That in itself is somewhat strange?

[Dave2512]

Seems many of the people that encountered him in the past are describing him as not quite right.

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

Seems many of the people that encountered him in the past are describing him as not quite right.

Lol. Quelle surprise!

[Elmer]

17 hours ago, Lihu said:

This kind of bugs me too. Why is he able to hold such a critical position at an armed security agency while passing all the psychiatric tests and yet is not able to personally purchase body armor in a relatively lax state for gun control? That in itself is somewhat strange?

He was denied a sale for body armor by the owner. No law restricted this sale. The owner felt his request to purchase high grade body armor and 1000 rounds was suspicious.
I think a better question should be why are people allowed to by 1000 rounds and Body armor?
Paper targets dont shoot back, neither do deer!
In what circumstance does a private (non-law enforcement citizen) require body armor and 1000 rounds, together?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/energy-environment/the-latest-senate-sends-facebook-ceo-letter-about-gunman/2016/06/15/bcf1c99c-3357-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

"The owner of a gun shop in Florida says the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shootings came to his shop to buy body armor and 1,000 rounds of ammunition about five weeks before the rampage.

Robert Abell, co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, says the shop declined the sale because the customer raised suspicions by requesting a high grade of body armor typically used by law enforcement.

Abell says the young man left empty-handed and that the shop alerted the FBI, but since no sale was made, the shop did not check the man’s ID and had no name to give authorities.

 

Abell says store staff realized the customer was nightclub shooter Omar Mateen only after seeing reports about the carnage in Orlando."

[newtogolf]

6 minutes ago, Elmer said:

He was denied a sale for body armor by the owner. No law restricted this sale. The owner felt his request to purchase high grade body armor and 1000 rounds was suspicious.
I think a better question should be why are people allowed to by 1000 rounds and Body armor?
Paper targets dont shoot back, neither do deer!
In what circumstance does a private (non-law enforcement citizen) require body armor and 1000 rounds, together?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/energy-environment/the-latest-senate-sends-facebook-ceo-letter-about-gunman/2016/06/15/bcf1c99c-3357-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

"The owner of a gun shop in Florida says the gunman in the Orlando nightclub shootings came to his shop to buy body armor and 1,000 rounds of ammunition about five weeks before the rampage.

Robert Abell, co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, says the shop declined the sale because the customer raised suspicions by requesting a high grade of body armor typically used by law enforcement.

Abell says the young man left empty-handed and that the shop alerted the FBI, but since no sale was made, the shop did not check the man’s ID and had no name to give authorities.

 

Abell says store staff realized the customer was nightclub shooter Omar Mateen only after seeing reports about the carnage in Orlando."

Private security guards require body armor, on it's own it's not a flag, combined with 1000 rounds of ammo is the flag.