Bad Golf Parents

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, IanW said:

Thank you for clearly articulating why you (and likely others) didn't approve of my point. I see now that I did a poor job explaining that. Instead of using the phrase 'call them out' I should have said 'instigate a dialogue' with them.

 Glad we cleared it up, your advice makes much more sense to me now.  

[Rainmaker]

26 minutes ago, IanW said:

"Can I help you with your cart."

 

Oh no . .I just watched "Trophy Kids" on Netflix . .you can NOT help a player with their cart - they have to push it themselves or else psycho Dad will go off on you, lol. 

[macksmom]

As a person who endured some mental and physical abuse as a child, I think you all make great points. My mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and was an alcoholic. (We are no longer in touch.) They can be brutal on their kids and especially daughters, because they feel they're in competition with their daughters. My mom lived to sabotage me. I couldn't trust her. 

If a person had stepped in, I probably would have gotten more hell at home because she would have said, "You made yell and look like a fool in front of that person! It's your fault!" But, any time someone stepped in a said something to my mother (usually a family friend or relative) I have always remembered that and appreciated it, because it reinforced the fact that I knew deep down that the way I was being treated was wrong. (My dad kind of feared my mom and never stepped in which is typical of an NPD marriage.)

I think it's important, as some of you said, to compliment the kids when you can. I remember once that a distant aunt told me I had "such beautiful blonde hair". My parents never complimented me or gave me praise, so I didn't know how to respond. I didn't say anything, and she said, "When someone compliments you, you're supposed to say thank you." I remember being totally mortified because I just didn't know how to handle a compliment. BUT I've always remembered every compliment I received and took it to heart, and now I know to say "thank you". :)

Eventually, I went to therapy as a young adult to get over some things, and the therapist was always pointing out such positive things about me, and I had trouble believing her. 

Today, I am much better. I'm 46 now, so I've had a lot of years to see what "normal" is and try to emulate it. LOL I will say that I've used my lessons from my childhood and become a pretty damn good mom. I've never had to berate or hit my kids, and they are really nice kids. Maybe I just got lucky. I don't know. I just parent with common sense. Plus, competitive junior golf doesn't matter all that much, in my opinion. Once these kids hit their teens and start growing or gaining other interests, you just never know. (At least that's what I've read.) My 14-y-o is definitely in that realm. ;)

[Fourputt]

Ian posts about how a kid shot his father, but these days it's probably more likely that the father comes back with a gun looking for you if you stick your nose in where it does't really belong.  If it's truly an abusive situation, the law should notified to handle it, not a bystander who doesn't have the resources and training to safely get to the root cause of the incident and to achieve a proper resolution.

[JonMA1]

Well, I've made plenty of mistakes as a parent. Too strict at times and possibly too lenient others times. The motivation behind it is very important in my opinion. Was my temper short because I had a bad day? Probably a few times. Or was it because kids are sometimes kids and they push the envelope - just as I did at their age.

As far as pushing kids in sports, yes, many of us live a bit vicariously through our children.

Spoiler

 

My son was a talented pitcher in high school. Getting a college scholarship wasn't likely - not because he didn't have a lot of the natural ability needed, but because he didn't want it bad enough. But he was still good. He did well in High School and even better in the more competitive American Legion level where he held his own against D1 players.

He started playing baseball as a freshman in HS. For 4 years every night after dinner, if there wasn't snow on the ground he'd ask "Hey Dad, feel like throwing?" and we'd go out so he could work on locating all his pitches (the boy became good at painting the corners). We built a mound and used wood piles as a backstop because "Dad" wasn't so talented at digging splitters out of the dirt. Eventually, I had to buy a catchers mitt because my fielding glove simply wore out from too many 4 seam fastballs.

He continued to improve every year and received some very good coaching during that time. But at some point, I could see the interest starting to diminish. This was the summer before starting his freshman year at GVSU.

Now here's where I became "that" Dad.

I hadn't attended his last American Legion game because of work. But I'd seen him throw a 1-hitter against a good team a few nights before (as soon as he'd given up that bloop single late in the game, I could tell he didn't care - like that was the only thing he was after). So when I asked him how he did, he told me he had gotten a couple of base hits but that the coach was pissed at him for jogging to first base on a single. We had a talk. I told him my opinion was that if he wasn't willing to play hard he shouldn't play at all. There were too many kids sitting the bench who'd love to get more playing time. After that talk, he took on more hours at his summer job and never played again. To this day, I don't think the coach thinks much of me. Lol.

At one point before he started school, I asked him if he was sure he didn't want to try out for GVSU's baseball team. We both knew he had little chance of walking on, but my concern was that he'd regret never trying. HIs reply made me feel a bit stupid because of how obvious it was. "Dad, I'm going for an engineering degree. I won't have any time to play sports".

The reality is that a small part of me wanted to tell people "my son plays college ball". And while I never acted all crazy about it as some parents did, that was still a pretty selfish way to think. I'll never condone the behavior some over zealous parents exhibit, but I can at some level understand what drives them.

He and I still throw the baseball when he comes up. I kind of wonder how good he would have been had he felt the passion to really pursue it.

 

 

[newtogolf]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Ian posts about how a kid shot his father, but these days it's probably more likely that the father comes back with a gun looking for you if you stick your nose in where it does't really belong.  If it's truly an abusive situation, the law should notified to handle it, not a bystander who doesn't have the resources and training to safely get to the root cause of the incident and to achieve a proper resolution.

What @IanWis suggesting is to engage the father in conversation not related to his abusing his child.  Talk about the weather, how hard golf is, the crappy range balls,  anything that will distract him from abusing his child and make him more aware of his surroundings.  

[Gunther]

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Well, I've made plenty of mistakes as a parent. Too strict at times and possibly too lenient others times. The motivation behind it is very important in my opinion. Was my temper short because I had a bad day? Probably a few times. Or was it because kids are sometimes kids and they push the envelope - just as I did at their age.

As far as pushing kids in sports, yes, many of us live a bit vicariously through our children.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

My son was a talented pitcher in high school. Getting a college scholarship wasn't likely - not because he didn't have a lot of the natural ability needed, but because he didn't want it bad enough. But he was still good. He did well in High School and even better in the more competitive American Legion level where he held his own against D1 players.

He started playing baseball as a freshman in HS. For 4 years every night after dinner, if there wasn't snow on the ground he'd ask "Hey Dad, feel like throwing?" and we'd go out so he could work on locating all his pitches (the boy became good at painting the corners). We built a mound and used wood piles as a backstop because "Dad" wasn't so talented at digging splitters out of the dirt. Eventually, I had to buy a catchers mitt because my fielding glove simply wore out from too many 4 seam fastballs.

He continued to improve every year and received some very good coaching during that time. But at some point, I could see the interest starting to diminish. This was the summer before starting his freshman year at GVSU.

Now here's where I became "that" Dad.

I hadn't attended his last American Legion game because of work. But I'd seen him throw a 1-hitter against a good team a few nights before (as soon as he'd given up that bloop single late in the game, I could tell he didn't care - like that was the only thing he was after). So when I asked him how he did, he told me he had gotten a couple of base hits but that the coach was pissed at him for jogging to first base on a single. We had a talk. I told him my opinion was that if he wasn't willing to play hard he shouldn't play at all. There were too many kids sitting the bench who'd love to get more playing time. After that talk, he took on more hours at his summer job and never played again. To this day, I don't think the coach thinks much of me. Lol.

At one point before he started school, I asked him if he was sure he didn't want to try out for GVSU's baseball team. We both knew he had little chance of walking on, but my concern was that he'd regret never trying. HIs reply made me feel a bit stupid because of how obvious it was. "Dad, I'm going for an engineering degree. I won't have any time to play sports".

The reality is that a small part of me wanted to tell people "my son plays college ball". And while I never acted all crazy about it as some parents did, that was still a pretty selfish way to think. I'll never condone the behavior some over zealous parents exhibit, but I can at some level understand what drives them.

He and I still throw the baseball when he comes up. I kind of wonder how good he would have been had he felt the passion to really pursue it.

 

 

Great post Jon, something I'm dealing with currently.  My daughter has D1 size and talent.  She's about to be Jr in HS.  My greatest fear over these past 3 years is that she loses her passion, and she has from time to time.  I question how mentally tough she is and these are the things I get on her about occasionally.  If she makes errors or physical mistakes, I have no problem with that, everyone does.  But when I see her motivation wane or sense that she doesn't care, I do react to that.  But I've always been aware not to go overboard because I could lose her.  No way could I treat her like some of these examples, she simply wouldn't stand for it.  

Well, fortunately, these past 3 months she's shown a great sense of drive, working out on her own, wanting to enter different camps with new kids, and just a real desire to improve and get that scholarship.  

She's out in Santa Monica right now attending a beach vball camp through Sinjin Smith.  She didn't want to do it cuz she really has no beach experience (she was visiting Cali anyway) and I signed her up without checking with her.  She followed through and went to her 1st session today and loved it, as I told her she would.  I gave her all the positives a week ago and said I wouldn't mention it again, decision was hers.  Didn't know til today that she went but I'm very proud of her and very glad I was able to constrain myself over the past week and not brow beat her about it (that was very hard).

Anyway, we're talking to a few schools now which energizes her and I believe she has the fortitude to take her game to the next level but it's a balancing act for the parents.  Gotta know which buttons to push  and when and most importantly, make sure your encouragement and criticism is weighted heavily to the former and comes from a desire to see her succeed and not from any kind of selfish vicarious emotion.  I haven't always made the right call but I think it's all gonna work out. 

Glad your son is happy in his pursuits.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Gunther

[JonMA1]

You're right @Gunther. As many other parents here have noted, it really is a balancing act. It's easy to spot it when a parent goes way over the edge, but at the same time, you gotta be there for them when they start having doubts. I'm sure many people who feel successful in life will acknowledge a little push from Mom or Dad at those times when they felt like giving up.

Sounds like you're doing ok with your daughter. Best of luck to her with whatever she chooses.

[Gunther]

2 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

You're right @Gunther. As many other parents here have noted, it really is a balancing act. It's easy to spot it when a parent goes way over the edge, but at the same time, you gotta be there for them when they start having doubts. I'm sure many people who feel successful in life will acknowledge a little push from Mom or Dad at those times when they felt like giving up.

Sounds like you're doing ok with your daughter. Best of luck to her with whatever she chooses.

Thanks, I ended up sharing a bit more than anticipated there, as I reread it.  But it's a real fun time in our lives right now, not without some stress but wouldn't change a thing.  Got a little carried away, lol.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

What @IanWis suggesting is to engage the father in conversation not related to his abusing his child.  Talk about the weather, how hard golf is, the crappy range balls,  anything that will distract him from abusing his child and make him more aware of his surroundings.  

I didn't read all of his rather lengthy sermons, just skimmed and didn't see anything that made me think that's what he was going for.  I also question whether such a thing is even possible if the guy is so heated up that he verbally abuses his child repeatedly.  

"Say, how's the weather, Jack?"  WHACK!!! - and you have a rapidly developing shiner and have accomplished nothing at all.

This is not the place for a layman.  It requires a psychiatric professional, or in the extreme, legal intervention.  I'm not about to get in the middle of something like this when the parent obviously believes that he is doing nothing wrong.

[jkelley9]

My wife is an elementary music school teacher, with ~600 kids in her school.

It's absolutely amazing the percentage of not just bad, or clueless, parents are out there (not everyone is going to be a super-star parent)... but TERRIBLE parents. Hearing about these kids' situations makes me feel like they literally do not have a shot at becoming normal, successful, happy adults. Their parents are so terrible that they don't even have a chance. That's freaking sad. 

It's too bad we're probably 200 years from the U.S. having a cultural shift (that's pretty much the only way it will happen, it cannot be done via law enforcement) with widespread adoption of morals/motivation of countries like India, Japan, etc.

But today is today, and our mindset epidemic is "I DESERVE the BEST things, but I shouldn't have to work for them" which doesn't translate well down to children... considering that's a child's mentality to begin with.

Back on topic; the parents that are heavily PUSHING (overboard) their children to become "star athletes" I equate to the same folks that spend half their paycheck on lotto scratchers, except instead of gambling your money away you're gambling your child's future away. Everyone <should> already know this but pro athletes are a blistering minority of the people who tried to get there. Do yourself a favor and push your child to get a real education alongside his/her journey to fall back on. 

[Rainmaker]

14 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

My wife is an elementary music school teacher, with ~600 kids in her school.

It's absolutely amazing the percentage of not just bad, or clueless, parents are out there (not everyone is going to be a super-star parent)... but TERRIBLE parents. Hearing about these kids' situations makes me feel like they literally do not have a shot at becoming normal, successful, happy adults. Their parents are so terrible that they don't even have a chance. That's freaking sad. 

It's too bad we're probably 200 years from the U.S. having a cultural shift (that's pretty much the only way it will happen, it cannot be done via law enforcement) with widespread adoption of morals/motivation of countries like India, Japan, etc.

But today is today, and our mindset epidemic is "I DESERVE the BEST things, but I shouldn't have to work for them" which doesn't translate well down to children... considering that's a child's mentality to begin with.

Back on topic; the parents that are heavily PUSHING (overboard) their children to become "star athletes" I equate to the same folks that spend half their paycheck on lotto scratchers, except instead of gambling your money away you're gambling your child's future away. Everyone <should> already know this but pro athletes are a blistering minority of the people who tried to get there. Do yourself a favor and push your child to get a real education alongside his/her journey to fall back on. 

My 5 year old daughter is taking piano lessons and I see the same things.  My wife, actually, is a little bit guilty of Tiger-Momming because, unfortunately, the teacher told her our daughter has "real potential".  All 5 year old kids have "real potential" if you ask me, lol. 

Luckily for my daughter, though, I've played music all my life and even semi-professionally for a while.  I went to all-state band and solo competitions in school - I pretty much know the drill.        

I might be a skeptic and I know my daughter has some natural talent - but I also know that the teacher gets paid for more lessons, more 1 on 1 lessons, fees for performances, etc.  I see no reason why a 5 year old can't just "plink the keys" if they want to.  I used to do that for hours when I was her age - no lessons . .just plinking on the keys to see what they sounded like. 

Much like golf, you can always improve at music but whether or not you can make it as a big-time pro is not entirely within your control.   Throughout my music "career" I met plenty of deluded individuals who thought their "big break" was around the corner.  There was actually a guy who lived in a walk-in closet in a house that I rented who talked endlessly of having "played woodstock" and was always on the verge of signing with Sony or some other major label.  We don't very much of any of that was true, lol.  In reality, he swept up the bar after shows and drank the half empty beers left on the tables.     

There is definitely no reason to yell at a 5 year old for not practicing hard enough.  At anything.    

[newtogolf]

5 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

My 5 year old daughter is taking piano lessons and I see the same things.  My wife, actually, is a little bit guilty of Tiger-Momming because, unfortunately, the teacher told her our daughter has "real potential".  All 5 year old kids have "real potential" if you ask me, lol. 

Luckily for my daughter, though, I've played music all my life and even semi-professionally for a while.  I went to all-state band and solo competitions in school - I pretty much know the drill.        

I might be a skeptic and I know my daughter has some natural talent - but I also know that the teacher gets paid for more lessons, more 1 on 1 lessons, fees for performances, etc.  I see no reason why a 5 year old can't just "plink the keys" if they want to.  I used to do that for hours when I was her age - no lessons . .just plinking on the keys to see what they sounded like. 

Much like golf, you can always improve at music but whether or not you can make it as a big-time pro is not entirely within your control.   Throughout my music "career" I met plenty of deluded individuals who thought their "big break" was around the corner.  There was actually a guy who lived in a walk-in closet in a house that I rented who talked endlessly of having "played woodstock" and was always on the verge of signing with Sony or some other major label.  We don't very much of any of that was true, lol.  In reality, he swept up the bar after shows and drank the half empty beers left on the tables.     

There is definitely no reason to yell at a 5 year old for not practicing hard enough.  At anything.    

Music is imo tougher than sports because in sports your performance will gain you recognition from colleges and maybe even professional teams if you're that good.  Music has gotten a little easier with social media but no matter how much talent and skill you possess you still need someone to "discover" you and invest in making you famous.  

As a parent you want to believe your kids are "special" and have this great gift or talent that will make them better than other kids, wrestling coaches, music teachers, golf instructors, etc all know this is the case and use that to separate you from your hard earned money.  This is where the problems begin because the parents hear from a "expert" their child is "gifted" and make the investment in maximizing their gift.  When the child doesn't achieve the expectations of greatness that was set for them, the parent blames the kid for not working hard enough.  

I'm not saying all coaches or instructors are con artists but it's important to establish realistic goals and expectations for both the child and the parents.  

[GolfLug]

Father of a 9 y/o and 7 y/o chiming in.. Really appreciate this discussion. Props to just about every post on this thread. I have come to know that parenting is as much a learned and evolving role as much as instinctive and don't beat myself over mistakes I do make.

On the topic, the only thing I feel I can add is that we as parents can nurture interests, create opportunities, even push a bit when you detect more laziness than lack of interest, but I think creating 'drive' is in a different league. That has to come from within.

My 7 year old has recently started swinging the club. He asked for lessons on his own because one of his classmate does. Given my own level of interest in golf (bordering on zealousness like many of us on the board..:-)) I could easily smother him unrecognizable, so now I am always serving him up opportunities to go hit some balls at the range but don't insist he do so.

1 hour ago, jkelley9 said:

Back on topic; the parents that are heavily PUSHING (overboard) their children to become "star athletes" I equate to the same folks that spend half their paycheck on lotto scratchers, except instead of gambling your money away you're gambling your child's future away. Everyone <should> already know this but pro athletes are a blistering minority of the people who tried to get there. Do yourself a favor and push your child to get a real education alongside his/her journey to fall back on. 

Bit harsh but I have to agree. I think let alone a pro career, starting to feel like it's hard enough to even play college ball unless you are all in or favoring the sport heavily over education very early. That's just for starters. I can't speak of other disciplines but for example if you are an engineering major, I can see one doing well college ball (for eg., @Pretzel) but can't see how you can nurture a pro career as well that will have you earn at least equivalent. 

Now, if my boy starts shooting in high 70s by the time he is 12 or so (very, very unlikely), I'm not going to lie, it would put me in a spot.   

A special shout out to @IanW. Appreciate your well meaning and passionate posts but don't let disagreements discourage you from being a regular on these boards. We all strive hard to maintain a healthy standard and can all get more passionate when a topic resonates. Since the interwebs have a way of veiling clarity every now and then, it can take a bit of work of seeing it through. Hope you stick around and continue posting.