Putting People on the Clock in the U.S. Women's Open

[SquirrelNutz]

The final group of 3 being put on the clock on the final day of a US Open is a severe and unfair penalty. In both US Opens, 2010 and 2016, the tournament leader, Hee Kyung Seo in 2010 and Sung Hyun Park in 2016, were new to USGA golf, started playing way too fast and immediately faltered. In both cases it was mostly another player in the group of 3 that caused the group to fall behind. In 2016 it was the Lydia Ko problem at #9, everyone searching for her ball in the hazard that led to the on the clock. In fairness, Park and her American caddie having to draw pictures to communicate and consult charts to change yards to meters certainly contributed to falling behind. All 3 in the group were in solid contention yesterday before the clock warning, and all 3 played at +2 and did a lot of jogging and hurrying during the time they were on the clock. A severe and tournament outcome changing penalty for sure, as it was in 2010. In both cases, the USGA failed to give the final Sunday grouping enough time to catch up after a problem hole and in both cases it unfairly changed the outcome of what until the USGA intervened, had been great tournaments.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

In both US Opens [the players were] new to USGA golf, started playing way too fast and immediately faltered.

Another way of writing this:

In both U.S. Opens, the players played way too slowly and were reminded of their duty under the rules to play at a proper pace.

If they had kept up, or played their shots within the 40 second window, there would have been no need to "start playing way too fast."

6 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

In both cases it was mostly another player in the group of 3 that caused the group to fall behind.

Then play your shot within the 40 second window. It's not too difficult. You're also given longer to play, IIRC, if you're the first to arrive at your ball. And the clock only starts when it's clear it's your turn to play, so if you have to move spectators out of the way or something, that doesn't count against you either.

Plus, the play on 9 may have put them over the edge, but they had already fallen well behind at that point.

If I'm a fast enough player that if I was ever put on the clock, I'd be fine, because I play quickly and would not worry about playing a shot within 40 seconds when it's my turn.

6 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

In fairness, Park and her American caddie having to draw pictures to communicate and consult charts to change yards to meters certainly contributed to falling behind.

Right. So she failed in her duty under the rules to keep up.

6 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

All 3 in the group were in solid contention yesterday before the clock warning, and all 3 played at +2 and did a lot of jogging and hurrying during the time they were on the clock.

They don't need to jog. Just walk quickly. As soon as you close the gap, you're off the clock. If you're still on the clock but don't go past 40 seconds, also no penalty.

6 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

A severe and tournament outcome changing penalty for sure, as it was in 2010. In both cases, the USGA failed to give the final Sunday grouping enough time to catch up after a problem hole and in both cases it unfairly changed the outcome of what until the USGA intervened, had been great tournaments.

You said above they had fallen behind before. They were behind before the 9th hole. That was the proverbial straw.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/spieths-group-put-clock-late-masters-opening-round/

How about players just play faster? What's so hard about that?

[Jeremie Boop]

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding this. Groups aren't randomly put on the clock, they are put on the clock because they fallen behind due to slow play. Actually, in order to fall behind in a professional golf tournament I would say you need to be playing ridiculously slow. If you get put on the clock in a tour event you most assuredly deserve it.

[MrFlipper]

On Friday Ko and her group teed off at 2pm Pacific time, when Fox signed off at 5 they were just finishing 9 holes. So a 6 hour 18 hole pace!!! And that was just the prevailing pace that was needed to be kept to stay in pace with others, in other words, just fine! Amazing, and interesting that no players were even mentioned as slow, at least as I heard.

Since TV jumps from group to group, you don't see the dilly-dallying very often. But many of the players are slow, Ko is glacial, she does nothing at any speed above glacial. She probably takes an hour to eat a bowl of grape-nuts. And it takes her forever to pull a club. Since she is a star I suppose only the USGA has the huevos to put her group on the clock, it never happens on the regular tour events. 

If the TV networks complained that slow play was hurting their product then maybe something would change, but golf coverage seems like coverage for other sports, there is hardly any criticism or negative comments about players, even for obvious things. I don't see this slow play problem getting any better, maybe when we have 7 hour rounds there will be some criticism. But I'm not even sure about that.

And the guys aren't much better.

 

[SquirrelNutz]

Yes, agreed that the Korean's reacted poorly to being put on the clock. No need to jog. Language barriers contributed to the unnecessary panic. Lydia Ko is fluent in English, but only 19 and inexperienced, still Lydia should have taken charge and put a stop to the panic. It was even worse in 2010 with the Korean ladies actually running down the fairway after their tee shots. Koreans in general tend to play slower, more relaxed, more thoughtful about every shot, similar to the way Jack Nicklaus played the game. American women already have the home country advantage, with 3 of the 5 majors in the USA and 0 in Asia. I would like to see the USGA be a bit more accommodating to our foreign guests. Would like seeing others opinions on 1 of my my main points in my original post, that it's unfair to penalize all 3 golfers when it's mostly just 1 of the 3 or even 2 of the 3, that has created the problem.

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Would like seeing others opinions on 1 of my my main points in my original post, that it's unfair to penalize all 3 golfers when it's mostly just 1 of the 3 or even 2 of the 3, that has created the problem.

First and foremost, nobody was penalized.  The players were notified that they were behind, and that they might be penalized if they didn't play within some very reasonable time limits.  Their reaction to that notification became the issue.  Perhaps they rushed because they didn't understand the USGA slow-play policy.  If they don't understand the rules, that is their problem.  If one player took more time because the caddie (that she chose) couldn't communicate efficiently with her, that's her problem.  If playing at that very reasonable pace (40 seconds after it becomes your turn) is so difficult, they need to play faster in practice so they know how to do it when it counts.  

As others have said, it takes some pretty dang slow play to fall significantly off the pace set byslowest of the groups in front.  Its actually refreshing to me to see the USGA's willingness to enforce its slow-play policy against the world number 1 and her group at a time when the scores really matter  It was refreshing to see Jordan Spieth's group put on the clock at the Masters.  Now, if the PGA and LPGA tours would be as consistent in enforcing the policy, things just might start to change a little.

[MrFlipper]

12 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Yes, agreed that the Korean's reacted poorly to being put on the clock. No need to jog. Language barriers contributed to the unnecessary panic. Lydia Ko is fluent in English, but only 19 and inexperienced, still Lydia should have taken charge and put a stop to the panic. It was even worse in 2010 with the Korean ladies actually running down the fairway after their tee shots. Koreans in general tend to play slower, more relaxed, more thoughtful about every shot, similar to the way Jack Nicklaus played the game. American women already have the home country advantage, with 3 of the 5 majors in the USA and 0 in Asia. I would like to see the USGA be a bit more accommodating to our foreign guests. Would like seeing others opinions on 1 of my my main points in my original post, that it's unfair to penalize all 3 golfers when it's mostly just 1 of the 3 or even 2 of the 3, that has created the problem.

Wow. I sure see things a little differently.

They don't need to run, just hit your shot in the required time. They ran so they could catch back up and get taken off the clock, and then they could take forever to pull a club and hit it and not be penalized.

Ko grew up in NZ. She is inexperienced? Have you followed her career? She has 2 majors and lots of wins already. She has no excuse, other than she is really slow.

Not a Korean thing. Plenty of slow play everywhere, all nationalities. And I'd just cut to the chase and say it's not "relaxed", or "thoughtful", but just glacially slow. And yes, Nicklaus was glacial in a time of faster play, and even though he was one of the all time greats, in my mind he is the father of the current epidemic of slow play on the pro tours, and recreational golf as well. When I was really young there was pressure to play quickly. Folks don't learn the game that way anymore. And I believe it is thanks to folks wanting to be like the pros. If all the pros played 18 holes in 2 1/2 hours, recreational golfers would make that attempt too.

And again, if you hit your shot in time, you don't get penalized. Just because your group is behind due to one person, that doesn't give license to the others in the group to play slow. You can't just put one person on the clock, the idea is to get the whole group back in their place on the course, even if they are the last group out. 40 seconds is plenty of time for anyone to hit their shot. I have no sympathy for the players here.

[Gunther]

28 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Yes, agreed that the Korean's reacted poorly to being put on the clock. No need to jog. Language barriers contributed to the unnecessary panic. Lydia Ko is fluent in English, but only 19 and inexperienced, still Lydia should have taken charge and put a stop to the panic. It was even worse in 2010 with the Korean ladies actually running down the fairway after their tee shots. Koreans in general tend to play slower, more relaxed, more thoughtful about every shot, similar to the way Jack Nicklaus played the game. American women already have the home country advantage, with 3 of the 5 majors in the USA and 0 in Asia. I would like to see the USGA be a bit more accommodating to our foreign guests. Would like seeing others opinions on 1 of my my main points in my original post, that it's unfair to penalize all 3 golfers when it's mostly just 1 of the 3 or even 2 of the 3, that has created the problem.

They are all professional golfers and should be judged on that basis alone.  I don't understand how nationality plays into it at all.

[SquirrelNutz]

I don't see professional slow play as a problem. On TV, almost everyone records so they can fast forward thru the commercials, lining up putts, etc. In person, it gives everyone a chance to catch their breath. When I followed Lydia Ko all the way on Sunday this year in her victory at the Kia Classic in Carlsbad, I was glad the pace wasn't faster so I could get to each of the 18 greens fast enough to see the approach shots. I think most of the other's in Lydia Ko's fun and relaxed army that day would agree. Slow play by amateurs is another matter, an inherent big problem with the game. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I don't see professional slow play as a problem. On TV, almost everyone records so they can fast forward thru the commercials, lining up putts, etc. In person, it gives everyone a chance to catch their breath. When I followed Lydia Ko all the way on Sunday this year in her victory at the Kia Classic in Carlsbad, I was glad the pace wasn't faster so I could get to each of the 18 greens fast enough to see the approach shots. I think most of the other's in Lydia Ko's fun and relaxed army that day would agree. Slow play by amateurs is another matter, an inherent big problem with the game. 

Slow play is a problem. Period. Full stop.

They have rules regarding pace of play, and they have the same weight as the other rules. Violate them, and you're penalized as described.

[boogielicious]

9 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I don't see professional slow play as a problem. On TV, almost everyone records so they can fast forward thru the commercials, lining up putts, etc. In person, it gives everyone a chance to catch their breath. When I followed Lydia Ko all the way on Sunday this year in her victory at the Kia Classic in Carlsbad, I was glad the pace wasn't faster so I could get to each of the 18 greens fast enough to see the approach shots. I think most of the other's in Lydia Ko's fun and relaxed army that day would agree. Slow play by amateurs is another matter, an inherent big problem with the game. 

Do you think 6 hours for three top-of-the-world players to play 18 is OK? We amateurs are encouraged to do it in 4 hours for a foursome.

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

6 hours is a ridiculously long time to play 18 holes of golf.  Fast forward and rewind shouldn't have any influence.  If the average round was 6 hours you'd have to reduce the size of the field in some tournaments as there wouldn't be enough daylight during certain parts of the year to allow everyone to finish their round in a single day.  

I don't think they need to finish in 4 hours like we are expected but anything over 5 hours is excessive and should be penalized.  

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

Most everyone else disagrees. Including the people who put on the competition.

[boogielicious]

3 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

First off, I am a fan on Lydia and Jordan and Jason Day and pretty much most pros. But it is ridiculous for them to take that long to play. Every other major sport that doesn't have finite time like soccer, hockey, etc. is trying to speed the game up. The NFL, NBA put up specific times i.e. shot clocks to speed the game up. Baseball is trying (but failing). Pro golf has gotten longer. It is going in the wrong direction.

[colin007]

5 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

Then that would make you part of the problem.

I wish I could find that article written after a US Open many many years ago about how slow the players were playing, I think they were playing in about three hours and 45 minutes. 

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boogie. Yes, because we are now in the age of recording & fast forwarding, I think 6 hours is ok for the pro's. In person, also ok. I think that final round at Carlsbad following Lydia this year was closer to 5 hours, but I hated to see it end, even 8 hours to savor Lydia's relaxed, happy, thoughtful game would have been just fine with me. 

I sense some inconsistency.  In the initial post, it looks as if you put most of the blame on Lydia Ko for causing the group to be behind, and suggest the other two players shouldn't be "penalized".  Yet you'd gladly let Lydia play as slow as she wants.  

All I want is for the various tours to consistently enforce their own rules.

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi Dave. Not as slow as she wants, there has to be limits, but in these  in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's, I think the USGA should have given the final group more time to catch up before putting them on the clock. Note correction from my original post, it was 2011, not 2010 that Ryu won the US Open as a result of Seo's group panicking after being put on the clock.