Putting People on the Clock in the U.S. Women's Open

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Great to see Lydia leading the way out if the dark ages of no fun, no laughs Scottish golf to modern have fun with the game

Hey, lets not slander the Scots, I've found that they're just as fun-loving as anyone, possibly even more so.  As proof, consider whisky, the Scots second-most important contribution to my world.  

Spoiler

And for anyone who's not sure what I mean, Scots make whisky, with no "e", everyone else makes whiskEy.

 

[SquirrelNutz]

Haha. Good one Dave. Ya, agreed,  thanks much to Scotland for Scotch Whisky and Golf, both great contributions to the world. Not sure about the bagpipes, but they do sound good at a funeral.

[Jeremie Boop]

2 hours ago, SquirrelNutz said:

But what about those in the groups of 3 that were not playing slow? I followed Seo all the way in the final round of her 2010 victory at La Costa. Seo was relaxed and elegant, but not overly slow. It was another player in Seo's group at the 2011 US Open that was struggling and getting into all kinds of trouble that caused the Seo group to fall behind. How was being put on the clock with the lead late in the 2011 US Open fair to Seo and the other player in her group that were not playing overly slow?

If you aren't playing slow, having your group being put on the clock will have no effect on you. You'll still be able to play the same way you did before because you'll never exceed the time limit allotted to you. They put the whole group on the clock in order to determine who is the cause so that they can then assess the penalty to the appropriate party.

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi Boop. Theoretically, that is true. But in reality, being informed they were now on the clock clearly created a stressful situation for every member of the final group yesterday. Pro golfers are not used to being on the clock and having to worry about how much time they take to read a tricky green. I ask the question again, where were the caddies when they were really needed yesterday to explain the meaning of being on the clock and to help calm Park, Ko & Ji yesterday? A good caddy needs to have a thorough understanding of the rules and be prepared do some mental/psychological coaching in critical situations. 

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boop. Theoretically, that is true. But in reality, being informed they were now on the clock clearly created a stressful situation for every member of the final group yesterday. Pro golfers are not used to being on the clock and having to worry about how much time they take to read a tricky green. I ask the question again, where were the caddies when they were really needed yesterday to explain the meaning of being on the clock and to help calm Park, Ko & Ji yesterday? A good caddy needs to have a thorough understanding of the rules and be prepared do some mental/psychological coaching in critical situations. 

Why do you think Park, Ko and Ji didn't understand what being on the clock meant?  

You keep emphasizing the caddies needed to explain it but I'd be pretty surprised if none of the three understood what it meant.  How do you know the caddies didn't discuss this with them?  They may have decided that rather than rushing any other part of their game they'd rather save some time by jogging, it's pure speculation on your part why they acted in the manner they did.  

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, RandallT said:

I did not mean to imply they weren't gracious. Quite the opposite.

I'm saying that they're professionals, and they don't need us to worry too much about their "delicate psyches." They can and should handle this stuff just fine, I would think. Again, maybe that's naive.

I'm saying they did in fact handle it all very well. Agree with you that we don't need to protect their delicate psyches.

It doesn't automatically follow that a particular rule or procedure doesn't deserve some discussion (thinking more of other threads than this one).

Edited July 12, 2016 by natureboy

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi Newt. You are correct of course, it's clearly speculation my part regarding the caddies. But it's not speculation that the USGA rules folks are getting more involved in recent US Open's than in the past and messed up both the 2011 and 2016 Woman's US Open's and the 2016 Men's US Open. It became a tainted victory for Lang yesterday as it was for Ryu in 2011, and both became flawed championships. Let the players decide the winner, not the referees. You hear that all the time in other sports regarding over-zealous refs, but it's a new problem the USGA must improve upon by revising some of their sacred rules. Just my opinion, not saying I am correct, but I think Fox Sports might be lobbying for the same thing after both their 2016 US Open broadcasts became so ultimately frustrating and unsatisfying for their viewers on both 2016 US Open Sunday's.

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Pro golfers are not used to being on the clock and having to worry about how much time they take to read a tricky green.

Have you not read any of the posts in this thread?  This is a ridiculous statement.  They are pros, figure it out.

[iacas]

Squirrel, the USGA did nothing wrong with respect to the players being put on the clock. In fact I wish they used the time par system rather than just the "out of position" system. More players would be on the clock until they realized they should play faster.

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi Gunther. The way the final groups went south immediately after being put on the clock in both the 2011 and 2016 US Opens is why I think it was too much for the ladies to handle, even though they are pro's. Should they have handled it better? Yes. Should the USGA allow extra time for reading the much faster than usual US Open greens and trying to wait for wind gusts to settle down. Again I say yes. Just my opinion.

[Valleygolfer]

1 hour ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Boop. Theoretically, that is true. But in reality, being informed they were now on the clock clearly created a stressful situation for every member of the final group yesterday. Pro golfers are not used to being on the clock and having to worry about how much time they take to read a tricky green. I ask the question again, where were the caddies when they were really needed yesterday to explain the meaning of being on the clock and to help calm Park, Ko & Ji yesterday? A good caddy needs to have a thorough understanding of the rules and be prepared do some mental/psychological coaching in critical situations. 

I was having a match the other day with a friend and we were paired with a couple that played slow and never ready golf. Our match was going along fine until the ranger, seeing the boat load of people backed up behind us told us we needed to speed up. I knew we were playing fast and told my partner to not worry about it and keep playing the way we normally play. Well it flustered him and knocked him off tempo for the round and I kept playing my game albeit slightly faster pace just to catch up a bit. It sucked for my buddy but he allowed it to get to him, just like Park allowed it to get to her (if it really did or maybe she just choked). No one cost her the open except herself.

I'll bet money Park was playing slow and Ko too, long before she lost her ball. Bottom line is she took too long on a putt and they called her on it.

Lang made clutch putts and played within the rules, she won it flat out.

[Gunther]

21 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Gunther. The way the final groups went south immediately after being put on the clock in both the 2011 and 2016 US Opens is why I think it was too much for the ladies to handle, even though they are pro's. Should they have handled it better? Yes. Should the USGA allow extra time for reading the much faster than usual US Open greens and trying to wait for wind gusts to settle down. Again I say yes. Just my opinion.

Hey bud, I don't think your viewpoint could be any more wrong but cheers to you for sticking to your guns in a respectful way.

On another note, I just found out via club email, that Brittany Lang is a member of my club...what???  How many can say they share a membership with a major champ?  Purty cool.  Would love to catch her out there and play a round wit her.  I would light her up!  Haha, no chance.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Gunther

[SquirrelNutz]

Almost everybody on both the PGA and LPGA tours, especially on super fast major greens on a windy day like yesterday, does a lot of backing off and restarting their putting routine, due to the fact that wind gusts greatly move putts on fast greens. Often this causes the player putting to go over the allotted time. It only becomes a concern for the player if their group is on the clock. That is unfair if you were not the reason your group fell behind, but still got put on the clock, as was the case with Seo at the 2011 US Open. The likelihood of a final day injustice like 2011 increases when they play in groups of 3 like the LPGA and decreases when they play in groups of 2 like the PGA.

[Natural Patrick]

8 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Do you think 6 hours for three top-of-the-world players to play 18 is OK? We amateurs are encouraged to do it in 4 hours for a foursome.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Gunther. The way the final groups went south immediately after being put on the clock in both the 2011 and 2016 US Opens is why I think it was too much for the ladies to handle, even though they are pro's. Should they have handled it better? Yes. Should the USGA allow extra time for reading the much faster than usual US Open greens and trying to wait for wind gusts to settle down. Again I say yes. Just my opinion.

4 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Almost everybody on both the PGA and LPGA tours, especially on super fast major greens on a windy day like yesterday, does a lot of backing off and restarting their putting routine, due to the fact that wind gusts greatly move putts on fast greens. Often this causes the player putting to go over the allotted time. It only becomes a concern for the player if their group is on the clock. That is unfair if you were not the reason your group fell behind, but still got put on the clock, as was the case with Seo at the 2011 US Open. The likelihood of a final day injustice like 2011 increases when they play in groups of 3 like the LPGA and decreases when they play in groups of 2 like the PGA.

You're missing the fact that if everyone's backing off and taking their time… then all of the players in front of them would be equally slow, and they'd have not fallen behind.

[SquirrelNutz]

Hi iaccas. Good point, but it's those in contention on Sunday that are grinding the hardest, trying to figure out all the windy variables. Those playing ahead that have already lost their dream of winning the US Open are much less likely to grind. Grinding mentally, especially if you are leading or within a couple shots of the lead takes extra time, especially on a windy day like yesterday. How bout those Penguins? Congrats, they were clearly the best team in the 2016 Stanley Cup playoffs. Best defense despite not having 1 of the best goalies, that usually doesn't happen. My favorite Penguin championship was when Badger Bob Johnson was coaching in Pittsburgh. Badger Bob was so good he even won a Stanley Cup in Calgary. Used to go to all the Badger hockey games during my Wisconsin years.

[natureboy]

Quote

We had a tight TV window at Reno and had to start at daybreak," Russell says. "The lead guy was Richard Johnson, the slowest player you could imagine. I went on the 1st tee and said, 'Richard, you're leading off,' and he said, 'Mark, you don't have to say another word. I have an 11 o'clock flight and have to be on it.' He shot 64 that day and finished in the top 10. I saw him a few weeks later and asked what he learned. 'Unbelievable,' is all he said, and we've never had another problem with him.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/slow-play-has-long-been-big-headache-pga-tour

Edited July 12, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi iaccas. Good point, but it's those in contention on Sunday that are grinding the hardest, trying to figure out all the windy variables. Those playing ahead that have already lost their dream of winning the US Open are much less likely to grind.

Brittany Lang and Anna Nordqvist were ahead of them. They played off for the championship. So they couldn't even keep up with these other "grinders" who clearly hadn't "lost their dream."

Keep tossing up those softballs, and I'll keep swatting them out of the park.

They're slow. They should have simply played faster. Simple solution.