Geezerbill's Friend's Preshot Alignment

[DaveP043]

28 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

Ok  I will answer one more time but you will not get it. Rule 16 forbids abnormal use of equipment. Laying a club at your feet to help with alignment is abnormal use of that club.  I give up. Keep spreading misinformation.

Laying a club down to help with alignment is specifically allowed, under Decision 8-2a/1, as long as the club is removed before a stroke is made.  Such use is NOT abnormal use of the club, unless the club remains in place.

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The presence of the dew complicates the matter, whether we're talking about laying the club down and picking it back up, or looking at footprints.  In the example by @GLFTPS, the player didn't intend to make marks when he first took his stance, he was simply "fairly taking his stance".  We've all started over after feeling mis-aligned.  Are you suggesting that its a penalty if you've left any kind of noticeable footprint that you might look at when you step back up to play the shot?  That doesn't really seem logical to me, nor does it seem to be what the rules require. 

The rule specifically says mark. Dew footprints are marks. They were not there before the shot. As soon as the player uses those marks to help him, he has intently used them to help him align to the line of play. 

[GLFTPS]

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The rule specifically says mark. Dew footprints are marks. They were not there before the shot. As soon as the player uses those marks to help him, he has intently used them to help him align to the line of play. 

 

Yikes.  It has to be removed because it is abnormal use of equipment.

 

4 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

 

Yikes.  It has to be removed because it is abnormal use of equipment.

So, once you fairly take your stance, you cannot adjust it in any way?  What Rule book are you using?

Edited January 2, 2017 by RandallT
removal of duplicate quotes for clarity

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The rule specifically says mark. Dew footprints are marks. They were not there before the shot. As soon as the player uses those marks to help him, he has intently used them to help him align to the line of play. 

I disagree that it's a violation @saevel25. What's he supposed to do - not touch his feet to the ground? You may have a case if he does this repeatedly, over several shots. But over one shot…? No. I don't think so.

OT anyway, please. Let's limit the discussion to the core topic. Since the OP's question was answered, the core topic is this:

On 12/29/2016 at 10:32 AM, GLFTPS said:

In a Decision on this, a player could align his feet with a club in the dew on the fairway, remove the club and use the line in the dew for alignment. It seems that it would be a violation but it is not.

I - and others - contend that it is against the rules, and Rule 8-2 specifically.

46 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

Ok  I will answer one more time but you will not get it. Rule 16 forbids abnormal use of equipment. Laying a club at your feet to help with alignment is abnormal use of that club.  I give up. Keep spreading misinformation.

Laying a club down is not abnormal use of equipment. You tried this before (it's 14-3, too, not 16 - you got that part right originally):

On 12/30/2016 at 6:57 PM, GLFTPS said:

… Rule 14-3 states that you may not have abnormal use of equipment. … It does not have anything to do with the line of play.

To which I answered simply:

On 12/30/2016 at 7:12 PM, iacas said:

I disagree. It has to do with the line of play, which is why the Decisions is under 8-2.

Bill, please stop with the "misinformation" line of bullshit. Not only have you consistently ignored that the definition of "line of play" includes "a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction," you've ignored the very simple fact that 8-2 is what prevents you from leaving the club there, not 14-3.

Being in the small minority (of one?) doesn't mean you're wrong, but it's really not indicative of you being right, either. Particularly when you're on the opposite side of so many rules officials.

11 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

Yikes.  It has to be removed because it is abnormal use of equipment.

Then why is the Decision under 8-2?

Bill, it's not abnormal use of equipment. You can lay clubs down under the Rules. Even in a hazard, it's permissable! You can also use clubs for alignment, whether by holding it against your hips or shoulders or lying on the ground. You just have to pick up a club that's helping you align to the line of play before you make a stroke, otherwise, it's a violation of 8-2.

[6Aces]

Decisions 8-2a/2 and 8-2a/3, as mentioned previously, confirm that placing any mark, club, etc.,...on or near the actual line of play, to aid alignment, is an infraction.

To verify that the overwhelming majority of us are correct, perhaps the poster should send his point of disagreement to the USGA and request an official ruling and then post both the question and USGA answer here.

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by 6Aces

[Rulesman]

On 12/30/2016 at 11:35 PM, Martyn W said:

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

Where does it say that?

I see no mention of any restriction in the Definition.

The is a line of putt and a line of play which happen to be the same line.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, 6Aces said:

To verify that the overwhelming majority of us are correct, perhaps the poster should send his point of disagreement to the USGA and request an official ruling and then post both the question and USGA answer here.

I suspect he doesn't want to do that, or perhaps has and didn't get an answer he liked.

Plus, for whatever reason, they include the "do not post this response" language every time they respond to an email.

[6Aces]

27 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Where does it say that?

I see no mention of any restriction in the Definition.

The is a line of putt and a line of play which happen to be the same line.

I talked about this in post #47.   Perhaps a simple description is that the line of putt is a subset of the line of play.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, 6Aces said:

I talked about this in post #47.   Perhaps a simple description is that the line of putt is a subset of the line of play.

You and @Rulesman are agreeing. It's @Martyn W who said the big about the Line of Play not existing on the putting green.

On 12/30/2016 at 6:35 PM, Martyn W said:

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

That's all beside the point in this topic.

---

@GLFTPS, except for your own take on things, which the Rules do not seem to support, do you have any evidence to back your position that drawing or making a line in the dew to help you line up is perfectly legal?

I think there's little doubt that leaving the club down there is a violation of 8-2, not 14-3, given the Decision is under 8-2, and I believe your case crumbles from there.

On 12/30/2016 at 7:12 PM, Asheville said:

Pick up the phone, GLFTPS, the USGA Rules office accepts phone calls (or send them an email). You've told us that you were taught that making that mark in the dew is allowed. No need to believe the active referees, rules teachers and PGA professionals here who say otherwise.

Please do this and report back (paraphrased). Be honest.

I'd call the USGA myself, but I feel it would be a waste of time given the answers given (and who has given them) in this thread.

[GLFTPS]

57 minutes ago, iacas said:

I suspect he doesn't want to do that, or perhaps has and didn't get an answer he liked.

Plus, for whatever reason, they include the "do not post this response" language every time they respond to an email.

I will go by the Sand Trap Rules of Golf that include;

 

The Line of Play goes through your legs when you take your stance

There is no such thing as a Line of Play on the putting green

Once you take your stance, you cannot adjust your feet

I simply can't take it anymore of the BS.

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

You and @Rulesman are agreeing. It's @Martyn W who said the big about the Line of Play not existing on the putting green.

That's all beside the point in this topic.

---

@GLFTPS, except for your own take on things, which the Rules do not seem to support, do you have any evidence to back your position that drawing or making a line in the dew to help you line up is perfectly legal?

I think there's little doubt that leaving the club down there is a violation of 8-2, not 14-3, given the Decision is under 8-2, and I believe your case crumbles from there.

Please do this and report back (paraphrased). Be honest.

I'd call the USGA myself, but I feel it would be a waste of time given the answers given (and who has given them) in this thread.

 

[iacas]

Just now, GLFTPS said:

The Line of Play goes through your legs when you take your stance

Nobody has said that, or anything close to that, and your repeating of it kind of makes you a jerk.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

There is no such thing as a Line of Play on the putting green

We already addressed that one. Only one person has said that.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

Once you take your stance, you cannot adjust your feet

We already addressed that too. Only one person said that, too, and he's not a rules official.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

I simply can't take it anymore of the BS.

Bill, most of the BS is coming from you, starting with the fact that you think that a rules infraction covered by a Decision under 8-2 is actually a violation of 14-3 (or 16, but I'll assume that one was a typo or brain fart).

I get that you view yourself as the lone right person here, but if you're as intelligent as I believe you are, alarms should be going off in your head when many other people disagree with you. Many other people with a deep rules background.

Popularity does not determine what's right or wrong, but it can often indicate it, particularly when the side with "the numbers" can back up their assertions with things written in the Rules.

You have no basis to conclude that a club along your feet is a violation of 14-3, nor for supporting the idea that you can create a line along your feet in the dew and that's okay, too…

[Hacker James]

or...just hit the friggin ball!  I fail to understand why grown men argue over such miniscule matters unless it is a tournament or something. I DO understand how some are passionate about discussing rules and such as their way of the total experience.

maybe somebody should insert a Check Box or something, title it "last word" and whoever checks it first wins. These things normally end in one of two ways. Either one party leaves the forum, or gets banned after making too many insidious remarks.

That being said......none of my business!    

[GLFTPS]

You can lie a club at your feet but must remove it. I said that repeatedly. You stated that the stance can be part of the line of play..It is impossible. I don't care about this anymore. Happy New Year and good luck

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

You stated that the stance can be part of the line of play..It is impossible.

I did not.

You have stated that laying a club down is abnormal use of equipment. It is not.

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, 6Aces said:

Decisions 8-2a/2 and 8-2a/3, as mentioned previously, confirm that placing any mark, club, etc.,...on or near the actual line of play, to aid alignment, is an infraction.

 

 

 

No they don't. They do confirm that leaving the club there is an infraction (or breach as the RBs call it).

Placing a club on the putting green would be a breach but that is covered by 8-2b

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Hacker James said:

I fail to understand why grown men argue over such miniscule matters unless it is a tournament or something. I DO understand how some are passionate about discussing rules and such as their way of the total experience.

I answered this before. Just like some baseball "fans" delight in the numbers, the stats, etc., some golfers enjoy rustling around in the nuances of the Rules. Some find deeper meaning and even things they can enjoy in the Rules. If it's not your bag of nuts, just avoid reading them. Or at least commenting as negatively as you did on them.

In other words, your second sentence is in opposition to the first.

3 hours ago, Hacker James said:

maybe somebody should insert a Check Box or something, title it "last word" and whoever checks it first wins. These things normally end in one of two ways. Either one party leaves the forum, or gets banned after making too many insidious remarks.

That's not only stupid, it's wrong. We don't ban people here except in incredibly rare cases, and those people have done a lot to deserve it.

3 hours ago, GLFTPS said:

You can lie a club at your feet but must remove it. I said that repeatedly.

Nobody's debating that. We can read the Decisions under 8-2.

3 hours ago, GLFTPS said:

You stated that the stance can be part of the line of play..It is impossible.

Again, I'll just say this: I did not.

To expand on that from before, I believe you're mostly referring to this post of mine:

On 12/29/2016 at 6:32 PM, iacas said:

I did. It includes a reasonable distance on either side. Plus, as I said, if you draw a parallel line, you are still indicating the line of play.

… (Definition of Line of Play omitted) …

Decision 8-2a/1 talks about a club placed parallel to the line of play to align the feet and is illegal. It sounds like in your opinion leaving the club there should be legal.

@GLFTPS, contrary to your repeated assertions that it's 14-3 at issue, a club along a player's toes is a breach of the rules because it's "a mark placed by the player or with his knowledge, for the purpose of indicating the line of play". That's it. The club indicates the line of play. It's not an "abnormal use" of equipment.

Additionally, the mark does not have to be ON the exact line of play in order to "indicate" the line of play. In fact, placing a club perpendicular to the line of play and six inches outside of the golf ball would also be a violation of 8-2.

The mark simply has to be close enough to the line of play (which includes a "reasonable distance" to both sides) and placed to indicate the direction. Between your toes and the ball counts.

At the time of the post I think you've misunderstood (back on the first page), I was pointing out that the "line of play" doesn't include ONLY the line itself, but a "reasonable" distance to each side. I didn't think you thought it was illegal under 14-3 because that doesn't make much sense: the decision is under 8-2. I thought you were suggesting that only something on the exact "line" counted as being capable of indicating the Line of Play.

Just as with walking ahead and leaving footprints from much earlier in the thread, the proximity matters. If I put a foot print in the dew fifteen inches in front of the ball within the general region defined as my Line of Play, I'm a lot more likely to use that foot print to indicate the line of play than one that's 30 feet ahead. Just the same as if I put a tee in the ground 15" in front, or a club along my toes.

[GLFTPS]

I wrote to the USGA. The reply said that a mark in the dew would violate 8-2a. I was wrong. Sorry. Take care.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, GLFTPS said:

I wrote to the USGA. The reply said that a mark in the dew would violate 8-2a. I was wrong. Sorry. Take care.

I admire the ability to come back and admit that you were wrong about something.

Good job. Sincerely.

If you poke around the rest of the site, @GLFTPS, you'll find a lot more people who are more like you than unlike you. Join us!