Par 3 Tees - Do you Tee it up or hit off the grass?

[Lihu]

12 hours ago, natureboy said:

I guess it all comes down to how you individually react to a ball on the tee, but hard for me to see how a teed ball (higher) vs a ball on the ground or grass would lead to lower contact on the clubface unless you shifted the ball position.

First, I want to qualify that I am not really hitting the ball all that well anyway. However, because of the type of club I use I can feel the difference between badly hit shots and good ones.

So, even though I try to keep the tee at my feet level, it doesn't always work out. It's easier for me to just align everything on the ground by grounding the club behind the ball. Yet, for lower lofted clubs the feel is nearly identical up and down the face a little bit (like a couple grooves or so?).

 

Quote

For any interested, here's a relevant chart from Mark Broadie's Golfmetrics amateur shot database.

Am1 corresponds to average score of 70-83 while Am2 corresponds to average of 84-97 (both on a 'typical course'). Dispersion pattern is tighter with teeing vs. fairway lie (on average).

This is kind of interesting. When I tee up (or hit off a mat), I feel like my shots are less thin and that's why there's more "spin". The balls tend to stick better because the flight is much higher and "spinnier". It's like a well struck approach iron for me is probably 10-15 yards shorter on the carry with virtually no roll? That could certainly make the dispersion smaller?

Kind of correlates to some other posters observing that their tee shots with approach irons are shorter?

[Club Rat]

I usually use a tee, but there are times when I'll just drop the ball on the surface and hit it.
Some turfs are sweet to just play off of.
If into a strong head wind, I also like to hit it off the tuff. I'll thin the shot so it has less spin with a low trajectory.
Sometimes with a strong wind at my back, I'll tee it a tad higher, use less club and swing more downward and harder than normal.

Some days I'm just like being creative and play a variance of a shot that day, for the fun of it.

 

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

So, even though I try to keep the tee at my feet level, it doesn't always work out. It's easier for me to just align everything on the ground by grounding the club behind the ball. Yet, for lower lofted clubs the feel is nearly identical up and down the face a little bit (like a couple grooves or so?).

I'm not understanding what you're saying here. 'Keep the tee at my feet level'??

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

This is kind of interesting. When I tee up (or hit off a mat), I feel like my shots are less thin and that's why there's more "spin". The balls tend to stick better because the flight is much higher and "spinnier". It's like a well struck approach iron for me is probably 10-15 yards shorter on the carry with virtually no roll? That could certainly make the dispersion smaller?

Kind of correlates to some other posters observing that their tee shots with approach irons are shorter?

Your earlier post that I responded to indicated you thought a bladed / thin shot was more likely off the tee. This seems the opposite?

I would say anytime you are hitting off a grass lie there's a chance that as you come into the ball the leading edge can scoop up some grass bits that get between the ball and the clubface, reducing spin. Cleaner lies like a teed ball and off mats should have less spin-reducing interference.

You're saying a well-struck approach shot off a tee is 10-15 yards shorter than an average shot from the fairway? If so you may deloft or release the club differently or grass juice is reducing your spin on the 'average' shot from the fairway and it carries further with more rollout. To me, the implication there is your average shot off grass is slightly fat or the fairways are pretty fuzzy.

[David L Yskes]

this is how i play par 3's...... if it's under 130 yards and the tee box grass is good... i dont use a tee... that way i play it just like i am hitting off the fairway into the green... 

if it's over 130 yards i use a tee, and put it low so it's like i have the perfect lie to hit from... 

 

[Lihu]

On 11/16/2016 at 9:20 AM, natureboy said:

I'm not understanding what you're saying here. 'Keep the tee at my feet level'??

Not sure what you're not "getting", I mean setup with the feet and tee at the same level.

So, if my feet are above the ball, then a tee would help, if my feet are lower a tee would not really help since the ball is already higher than my feet.

How would you describe that better?

 

Quote

Your earlier post that I responded to indicated you thought a bladed / thin shot was more likely off the tee. This seems the opposite?

Not in the least. I didn't say that I actually blade shots off tee. Just that that's how it feels with the higher lofted clubs.

So, I prefer not to tee up with anything shorter than a 7i or even a 7i (my 7i is pretty much like most people's 8i in loft anyway).

 

Quote

I would say anytime you are hitting off a grass lie there's a chance that as you come into the ball the leading edge can scoop up some grass bits that get between the ball and the clubface, reducing spin. Cleaner lies like a teed ball and off mats should have less spin-reducing interference.

Not really, unless you hit all your shots fat? I tend to hit thin when I miss. This is also undesirable, but will not put grass/dirt between the club face and the ball. . .

 

Quote

You're saying a well-struck approach shot off a tee is 10-15 yards shorter than an average shot from the fairway? If so you may deloft or release the club differently or grass juice is reducing your spin on the 'average' shot from the fairway and it carries further with more rollout. To me, the implication there is your average shot off grass is slightly fat or the fairways are pretty fuzzy.

No, I'm saying that my well struck shots that spin a lot and go high are 10-15 yards shorter than my typical shot which is lower flight and carries 10-15 yards further.

I typically hit a little too thin and can't get the "higher performance" shots that I like. When my balls hit the green they roll, and I can never get anything longer than an 9i or 8i to stick. Even my typical 8i shot tends to roll. I can get the 52 to stick even with a low trajectory shot, but the trajectory is really non-ideal and typically feels too "thin".

Not sure how you figured that I tend to hit "fat" shots? I would think that fat shots typically go shorter and higher if they don't just piddle on the ground?

[iacas]

58 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not sure what you're not "getting", I mean setup with the feet and tee at the same level.

So, if my feet are above the ball, then a tee would help, if my feet are lower a tee would not really help since the ball is already higher than my feet.

How would you describe that better?

Most tees don't have much slope (not much more than the required 1.5% or so for drainage).

Just tee the ball up the same every time.

[natureboy]

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

Not sure what you're not "getting", I mean setup with the feet and tee at the same level.

So, if my feet are above the ball, then a tee would help, if my feet are lower a tee would not really help since the ball is already higher than my feet.

How would you describe that better?

I would have referenced using the tee to deal with 'uneven lies' on the tee box. From my POV you could have been referencing ball position relative to target and your feet.

A tee technically would help most players (on average) - not necessarily you, because it would reduce chances of contact with the top of the grass on the way to the ball.

Even if your average impact is a certain height on the clubhead, there's lots of variation swing to swing so occasionally even the best players may graze the top of the grass (or cut some blades or even turf) on the way to the ball. Just grazing the top of the grass blades can transfer some moisture to the clubface which may affect spin and distance control by altering typical launch conditions.

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

Not really, unless you hit all your shots fat? I tend to hit thin when I miss. This is also undesirable, but will not put grass/dirt between the club face and the ball. . .

I kinda doubt that your variation in impact is only toward the thin side of your 'typical' contact point.

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

No, I'm saying that my well struck shots that spin a lot and go high are 10-15 yards shorter than my typical shot which is lower flight and carries 10-15 yards further.

I typically hit a little too thin and can't get the "higher performance" shots that I like. When my balls hit the green they roll, and I can never get anything longer than an 9i or 8i to stick. Even my typical 8i shot tends to roll. I can get the 52 to stick even with a low trajectory shot, but the trajectory is really non-ideal and typically feels too "thin".

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by well-struck. In my mind that means a shot that does not feel significantly off center based on feedback from the club into the hands. Perhaps you are referencing only relative to a desired shot shape. If that's the case, you could be hitting the low shots out of the center of the clubhead with so much deloft that the trajectory is boring and while the spin keeps the ball in the air the landing angle is so shallow that the ball runs out.

I had thought you were describing what is a more typical mishit low on the face of the clubhead where vertical gear effect delofts the club while adding spin. My personal experience of these type of shots is that they tend to travel shorter than a well-struck shot that is higher on the face. Maybe you've discovered a special sweet spot on your clubs.

Most people describe a trajectory with a shape or a height, while a shot that 'feels thin' usually refers to vibrations or shaft torquing felt through the hands that indicates to the player a ball struck lower on the face than ideal.

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

Not sure how you figured that I tend to hit "fat" shots? I would think that fat shots typically go shorter and higher if they don't just piddle on the ground?

I didn't mean significantly fat as in cutting swaths in the ground before the ball. I meant grazing the top of the grass or cutting some stems as the blade approaches the back side of the ball. Easier to do when the turf is a bit fuzzier.

The impact below is off a mat, but notice how the surface behind the club is rippled because the bottom contacted the surface slightly behind the ball. If this was grass an approach to the ball like that may not have impacted the turf itself, but may have collected some grass bits and moisture prior to impact.

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by natureboy

[Lihu]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

Most tees don't have much slope (not much more than the required 1.5% or so for drainage).

Just tee the ball up the same every time.

Yeah, makes sense.

 

18 hours ago, natureboy said:

I would have referenced using the tee to deal with 'uneven lies' on the tee box. From my POV you could have been referencing ball position relative to target and your feet.

A tee technically would help most players (on average) - not necessarily you, because it would reduce chances of contact with the top of the grass on the way to the ball.

Even if your average impact is a certain height on the clubhead, there's lots of variation swing to swing so occasionally even the best players may graze the top of the grass (or cut some blades or even turf) on the way to the ball. Just grazing the top of the grass blades can transfer some moisture to the clubface which may affect spin and distance control by altering typical launch conditions.

I kinda doubt that your variation in impact is only toward the thin side of your 'typical' contact point.

When I do hit fat, beaver pelt sized divots happen. In our drought ridden fairways, I have been "encouraged" to hit on the thin side of optimal by almost everyone who sees me.

 

Quote

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by well-struck. In my mind that means a shot that does not feel significantly off center based on feedback from the club into the hands. Perhaps you are referencing only relative to a desired shot shape. If that's the case, you could be hitting the low shots out of the center of the clubhead with so much deloft that the trajectory is boring and while the spin keeps the ball in the air the landing angle is so shallow that the ball runs out.

I had thought you were describing what is a more typical mishit low on the face of the clubhead where vertical gear effect delofts the club while adding spin. My personal experience of these type of shots is that they tend to travel shorter than a well-struck shot that is higher on the face. Maybe you've discovered a special sweet spot on your clubs.

What you describe happens to me as well. What I was describing as a well hit shot is one that gets the center of the face and has a nice high trajectory while landing soft. Those a very rare for me, and I usually select a club for my miss which is kind of the norm, unfortunately. . .

 

Quote

Most people describe a trajectory with a shape or a height, while a shot that 'feels thin' usually refers to vibrations or shaft torquing felt through the hands that indicates to the player a ball struck lower on the face than ideal.

I didn't mean significantly fat as in cutting swaths in the ground before the ball. I meant grazing the top of the grass or cutting some stems as the blade approaches the back side of the ball. Easier to do when the turf is a bit fuzzier.

The impact below is off a mat, but notice how the surface behind the club is rippled because the bottom contacted the surface slightly behind the ball. If this was grass an approach to the ball like that may not have impacted the turf itself, but may have collected some grass bits and moisture prior to impact.

 

Ah, I get it. Usually, dirt is not involved, but I can see that. Usually when I make a shot that involves grass and dirt before striking the ball, I don't consider it anywhere near optimal much less good, though.

[MrDC]

I live by the Jack Nicklaus rule for this- tee the ball up a bit, it's an advantage.

There's no reason not too, it's just easier to hit the ball clean off a raised tee, there's less chance of a fat or thin shot, better control.

Some guys I play with think it's strange, that you want to "trap" the ball against the ground to get the best contact, that's total bunk.

I go for about 1/4" of air for most irons, and maybe like 1/2" for woods and hybrid.
 

Edited November 18, 2016 by MrDC

[CptShankapotamus]

I find the most firm and upright lie possible on the grass kind of like a natural tee. I find that if I try to use a tee, it ends up practically on the grass anyways. I'm a bit more comfortable seeing it on the grass too with my shorter irons.

[Vinny Cap]

I did some more experimenting this weekend and I was hitting all my irons better off the grass.  2 par 4's I hit them right off the grass, right down the middle right to 9i or W distance.  The 3's were off a bit as I hit them very high and the wind knocked them down a bit and blew them to the side a bit as well.  I should have made some adjustments but I didn't.  I am more looking at the tee box for level and how good the grass is before I decide to take a tee out if I am hitting an iron.

[cutchemist42]

Tee it up after seeing a video someone posted of Dustin Johnson guessing par3 shot yardages more accurately with a tee. 

Basically, I feel the tee produces the same hitting environment everytime. Even if I think I found good spot of gras, there's a good chance its sitting different from shot-to-shot because of grass being variable.

[Hatchman]

I like to tee it up.