Nearest point of relief, where was it?

[No Mulligans]

The picture shows the 1st hole tee area and the 9th hole green (and the practice green).  There is a fence approximately 15 feet high along the right edge of the cart path leaving the ninth hole and extends past the first set of trees. This fence protects the players on the 9th green from errant tee shots on the 1st hole.  My approach shot, the Pitching Wedge, landed about pin high but maybe 10 feet to the right of the green which is a slope that caused the ball to bounce/roll forward, to the right, and to the cart path.  The ball then rolled under the fence and ended just an inch or two to the right of the fence.

I thought my nearest point of relief and no closer to the hole was about six feet to the right of the fence where I could take an unobstructed swing with my lob wedge, I went one club length further than that putting me maybe 9 feet to the right of the 15 foot fence.  I tried to clear the fence with an open face, ball forward, full swing lob wedge.  I almost did, but the ball ricocheted off the top and ended 6 yards behind me.

Could I have considered the fence still in my way and still an immovable obstruction as to clear the fence was nearly impossible (at least for me)?

Could I have taken relief on the cart path on the left side of the fence?  If so, would I get additional relief from the cart path?

What was the best play here?

 

[Rulesman]

1) You only get relief for area of intended swing not line of play

 

2) If that point was nearer to where your ball lay (not nearer the hole) that IS your nearest point of relief.

[iacas]

Couldn't you have dropped on the green side of the fence?

Or was the nearest point at which you could make the swing you intended to make (an important point because from the green side you could possibly hit a chip shot with a short backswing) behind the fence?

[David in FL]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Couldn't you have dropped on the green side of the fence?

Or was the nearest point at which you could make the swing you intended to make (an important point because from the green side you could possibly hit a chip shot with a short backswing) behind the fence?

Given where the green is in relation to the original lie, it looks as if the npr for a right handed player would have been on the green side of the fence.  The "intended swing" piece in determining the npr is a huge piece in this particular scenario, and one that most of us might forget to take into consideration.

 

 

[No Mulligans]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Couldn't you have dropped on the green side of the fence?

Or was the nearest point at which you could make the swing you intended to make (an important point because from the green side you could possibly hit a chip shot with a short backswing) behind the fence?

That would have put me on the cart path.  I like that option better even if I had to hit off the cart path.  But I think I would then get additional relief from the cart path, it that's the case that would have been best by far.

In the heat of the moment I didn't consider the possibility of dropping on the other (left) side of the fence.

[mdl]

10 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

That would have put me on the cart path.  I like that option better even if I had to hit off the cart path.  But I think I would then get additional relief from the cart path, it that's the case that would have been best by far.

In the heat of the moment I didn't consider the possibility of dropping on the other (left) side of the fence.

 

My understanding is that if you take relief you have to take full relief, given NPR and intended swing and stance and all that.  I know, for example, that when taking relief from a cart path, you're not allowed to drop such that you'll be standing on the cart path, hitting off of the grass, as that's not full relief, even if that would result in a much better line for you.

Rules experts, does this apply in this case?  IOW, can an NPR be in a place from which you'll get to take more relief, or does that count as not taking full relief?

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, mdl said:

Rules experts, does this apply in this case?  IOW, can an NPR be in a place from which you'll get to take more relief, or does that count as not taking full relief?

I think in this case, you have two different Immovable Obstructions, the fence and the cart path .  First, you have to take complete relief from the fence.  The nearest point or complete relief from the fence could indeed be on the cart path, and one clublength from that point could get you pretty close to the edge of the path furthest from the fence.  Once that drop is complete (with more than one drop if required, placing the ball if required), if the cart path still interferes, you can take relief from the cart path, again to the nearest point of complete relief from the path, which could be in the grass with a clear shot.  Without being there I can't be certain of any of this, but it seems possible based on the picture in the OP.

[mdl]

39 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think in this case, you have two different Immovable Obstructions, the fence and the cart path .  First, you have to take complete relief from the fence.  The nearest point or complete relief from the fence could indeed be on the cart path, and one clublength from that point could get you pretty close to the edge of the path furthest from the fence.  Once that drop is complete (with more than one drop if required, placing the ball if required), if the cart path still interferes, you can take relief from the cart path, again to the nearest point of complete relief from the path, which could be in the grass with a clear shot.  Without being there I can't be certain of any of this, but it seems possible based on the picture in the OP.

Thanks Dave.  So, in a non-tournament round, what you're saying is that you should take relief one club length from the edge of the cart path

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, mdl said:

Thanks Dave.  So, in a non-tournament round, what you're saying is that you should take relief one club length from the edge of the cart path

Within my group of friends, we'd reason out the sequence like I just laid it out, and then just make the final drop, rather than take the time to make the intermediate drops.  And the final drop would be full relief from the cart path (including stance and swing), and as much as one clublength further.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I think in this case, you have two different Immovable Obstructions, the fence and the cart path .  First, you have to take complete relief from the fence.  The nearest point or complete relief from the fence could indeed be on the cart path, and one clublength from that point could get you pretty close to the edge of the path furthest from the fence.  Once that drop is complete (with more than one drop if required, placing the ball if required), if the cart path still interferes, you can take relief from the cart path, again to the nearest point of complete relief from the path, which could be in the grass with a clear shot.  Without being there I can't be certain of any of this, but it seems possible based on the picture in the OP.

Right.

So long as that first drop is the NPR. The NPR is an arc that often then results in it being only a point (sometimes two) at which you can then measure the club length.

If the NPR was on the back side of the fence, so be it - I doubt a club length would have gotten you to the near side of the fence.

[Rulesman]

On 11/17/2016 at 6:06 PM, mdl said:

Thanks Dave.  So, in a non-tournament round, what you're saying is that you should take relief one club length from the edge of the cart path

Not quite. You have to determine the nearest point of relief from the ball on the path and then take 1 cl from there.

This applies to tournament and non tournament rounds.

 

[No Mulligans]

A related hypothetical that I find interesting.

The fence that I went under was old and the chain link had curled up and was no longer touching the ground in places so it was easy for the ball to roll under the fence.

My hypothetical is:  What if the fence was to the ground as originally constructed and my ball was on the green side of the fence and right against the fence?  

In this case the ball is only two inches from where my actual ball ended up, it's just on the other side of the fence, the green side.  If the NPR (no closer to the green) was the same place as I used, on the left side of the fence... Would you then walk around the fence into the area of the 1st hole, and drop on the left side of the fence?

To be honest that spot probably wouldn't occur to me as part of the consideration in this hypothetical scenario.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

A related hypothetical that I find interesting.

The fence that I went under was old and the chain link had curled up and was no longer touching the ground in places so it was easy for the ball to roll under the fence.

My hypothetical is:  What if the fence was to the ground as originally constructed and my ball was on the green side of the fence and right against the fence?  

In this case the ball is only two inches from where my actual ball ended up, it's just on the other side of the fence, the green side.  If the NPR (no closer to the green) was the same place as I used, on the left side of the fence... Would you then walk around the fence into the area of the 1st hole, and drop on the left side of the fence?

To be honest that spot probably wouldn't occur to me as part of the consideration in this hypothetical scenario.

If it's the NPR then yes.

[RandallT]

Interesting thread. I'm just curious- can a course set a local rule such that for this hole, the NPR for any drop near the fence must be on the side of the fence where the green is?  

I could see them wanting to do this for both safety and pace of play reasons, but I'm not attuned enough to the notion of whether or not that sort of local rule is 1) considered blasphemous to the RoG, 2) simply not something that can be governed by a local rule, or 3) better achieved some other way, like putting some red, yellow, or white stakes down along the fence.

[Rulesman]

If the fence was specifically installed and constructed for safety, then a Local Rule providing a Dropping Zone could possibly be introduced.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-18