"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[Be Still]

No sir, I said, "I see and hear".  I followed him in his group a few times.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Be Still said:

No sir, I said, "I see and hear".  I followed him in his group a few times.

I asked for "details, please" and you said you "see and hear" he shoots in the 60s. That doesn't count as "details."

Regardless, several things remain true:

• The JV swing purposefully turns off several parts of your body that can contribute to the golf swing. It's restrictive and limited by design.
• If there was a +7 out there, we'd know who he was because… he'd be winning major amateur tournaments OR he'd have gone pro and would be doing reasonably well for himself on the PGA Tour. It's not like Tour players are +10s.
• JV has been given a chance to talk about his swing, or demonstrate some things about how you hit the driver, etc., but has refused to do so.
• Etc.

I don't really care, but I generally dislike dishonesty and bullshit, and this whole thing feels like it's bathing in both.

[Double Mocha Man]

I'll jump in here.  On which L.A. course are you seeing him and his friends play?  Which tees are they usually playing?

[Be Still]

Those are personal details, sir, not data on any publications- if there was, I never followed it.  SCGA would probably have his records from those days.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Be Still said:

Those are personal details…

No, they're not.

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

I generally dislike dishonesty and bullshit, and this whole thing feels like it's bathing in both.

Doubly renewed.

[Vinsk]

37 minutes ago, Be Still said:

No sir, I said, "I see and hear".  I followed him in his group a few times.

Well kind sir, you’re kind of doing what Jim does. Anecdotal ‘facts.’ And hearing that Jim and his group shoot in the 60’s or low 60’s doesn’t mean you’ve got a +7 hcp. Let me explain the bs detector in a different way. Jim doesn’t teach for free. I know he likes to wear Chuck Taylors and not dress the traditional way people do on a golf course. He’s just a simple guy living the life of golf Zen. And that’s all fine. But he charges for his method. His teaching. It’s only common sense that if a player taught by him was truly playing to a +7hcp, we’d know about him.

It’s 2022. Social Media is hard to avoid. It’s not arrogant or confrontational to want some hard proof when it comes to paying for something that’s claiming an expectation that’s quite phenomenal. Golf is a world wide sport. Magazines all over the place dying to get us to try this and that. Billions are spent on it. So do you really believe that some ‘underground’ nice guy out in Southern California has unlocked the real secret to shooting below par consistently? And that he‘s just happy with keeping it on the down low along with his tour quality student?  Again, he doesn’t teach for free.

 

[iacas]

Wow, you've been at this since 2014…:

Quote

I sent the link to one of my students who enjoys forums for him to view 2 days ago, he decided to respond. His name is Noel and he's very active on greenskeeper.org and has made plenty of posts about the success he's had using my swing.

[ToddW]

On 4/1/2022 at 5:33 PM, Be Still said:

i did because I was in awe of his ball striking for one.  The sound, the distance the curvatures, the height or piercing trajectories completely impressed me- short game, he's got it- trick shots, I've seen a couple.  

I am not being critical, I am just wanting to know. The JV has you set up, drop your foot back, swing along the path of your feet, do not change the plane of your shoulders while swing, and if you do that and your clubface is square to your club path, then you will hit what appears to be a straight push.  If you somehow close your clubface along the JV swing path, you will hit a hook or strong draw or draw (in the few videos JV looked at me he was critical that I opened up my shoulders at all, just closed through and after impact).  If you keep your shoulders and body closed off the entire time, you are most likely going to overdraw the ball. You won't hit right, but its like your chest is stalling, so your arms and hands have no place to go but to breakover and hook the ball.  So, it always seemed to me that using his method to a T, you got a push, or a hook, Either one not so great if you are trying to stick it in the middle of the green or some distance from the pin. Maybe I understand it wrong, but that is how I understood it. 

If anyone could shed any light on that I would be obliged. 

[Vinsk]

@ToddW Dropping the trail foot back is only suggested for those who have a hard time turning their shoulders closed and making the backswing. It’s really a pivot onto your lead foot as if someone threw a ball at your trail shoulder and you pivot to dodge the ball. Then you take your grip. 
 

You’re swinging along your upper body/shoulder line with the idea to stay still in this position on the backswing and maintaining this closed position at impact. I hit nice draws and push draws with this. But I have my club face pointed left of my target ( I’m LH) but obviously my misses can be a hook, shank or slice like any other swing method I use….lol. 
 

I can vouch  that this method isn’t creating big hooks as the normal ball flight. What I can’t vouch for, nor have I seen proven at all, is swing speeds with the longer clubs being produced. Except of course for JV himself who claims a 118mph driver speed. Never shown on a monitor of course.  But he said the Titleist Institute of Technology said his method is biomechanically sound so it must be true.🙂

[Gene438]

I joined site to reply to this thread, but I love the content here...just my 2 cents.

1)I have golfed for 40 years.  I have a full swing simulator in my home and hit every day.  I shoot low 70's....avg. distance, etc.

2) I think admin is correct in that if you were programming Iron Byron with the perfect swing, it would be the "traditional swing" and would not be the JV swing.  However, does that invalidate the JV swing?  Does that mean everyone should be taught the traditional swing?  Of course not, the swing has many useful purposes and I have learned a lot from using it at times.  Also, the "traditional swing is not for everyone...sorry, but it's not.

3)I have always felt that a big percentage (80%) of teaching pros are not effective because they cannot communicate the feel and mental understanding of the swing to the pupil....what seems natural or subliminal to the teacher is often not the same with pupil.  On thing Jim is good at is communicating and keeping it simple and lowering the concepts to the pupil's level of understanding.  I had a physics professor who was internationally respected and published, but if you asked him to explain a simple concept, he would leave you mumbliing like an idiot.....he just couldn't get down to my level and communicate....I feel this happens a lot in golf instruction.

4)For example, Jim's relentless pursuit of stillness taught me how bad my swaying was.  I thought my head and right hip were relatively still in the backswing, but looking at myself in video, I was swaying 1000% more that I "felt" I was.  Once I became more "still" and kept more weight on my left side,  I was actually not swaying (losing power) and began truly rotating alittle in my hips and gain power.  MY mind felt like my swaying was turning when actually it was swaying.  Jim's idea of keeping my weight on the left actually taught me more of a traditional move because "in my mind" my sway was rotating and now my stillness is truly a hip rotation (slight)..... I hope all that makes sense.  I could say the same thing as far as keeping my shoulders closed (in my mind) is actually me not opening up and coming over the top.....

5)I'm trying to say this better... but basically, I believe that all golfers would benefit from watching themselves on video because what you think you are doing is probably not what you are actually doing  ie..length of backswing, head still, hip turn vs sway, etc.  I know from my experience, the idea of keeping more weight on my left side during the backswing, closing my shoulders and swinging "out" along a 1:00 position is a key thought position.   When I do that, and I look at the video, I am somewhere in between what Jim advocates and the traditional swing.....I do rotate my hips....but I DO NOT Sway.....

post is much longer than I planned, buy I hope I got my point across.....

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Gene438 said:

However, does that invalidate the JV swing?  Does that mean everyone should be taught the traditional swing? 

These are straw men.

And most golf instructors stink way before they get to the point of trying to communicate effectively. 🙂

[Gene438]

straw man - "a person regarded as having no substance or integrity."

I hope as an instructer you have better people skills than you do as an Admin. 

I was simply trying to add a "point of view" but obviously this subject threatens you in some way.

Please kindly delete me from forum and have a nice day.

[billchao]

12 minutes ago, Gene438 said:

straw man - "a person regarded as having no substance or integrity."

Straw man - Wikipedia

You’re defending against an argument no one made. That’s a straw man.

Nobody has said these things:

4 hours ago, Gene438 said:

However, does that invalidate the JV swing?  Does that mean everyone should be taught the traditional swing?

In fact, many of us have gone on to make this exact argument:

4 hours ago, Gene438 said:

Of course not, the swing has many useful purposes and I have learned a lot from using it at times.  Also, the "traditional swing is not for everyone

The rest of your post weakens your entire position. You just want to provide a point of view, but as soon as someone disagrees with it, you’re going to take your ball and go home? And we’re the ones who are threatened by this subject? Right…

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Gene438 said:

straw man - "a person regarded as having no substance or integrity."

No. @billchao shared what that term means, and it's not that. Plus, I said "these are straw men" not "you are a straw man."

4 hours ago, Gene438 said:

I was simply trying to add a "point of view" but obviously this subject threatens you in some way.

There's something obvious here, but it's not that. 😄

Look, buddy, you made a mistake. Got a little egg on your face. You want to leave, nobody's stopping you. You want to stay, that's cool too — we move on quickly here, because this shit's just golf.

Whatever you decide to do, have a good day.

[Vinsk]

Miserable video. I really can’t even understand  what he thinks a player watching this will gain. Blow my mind? Yeah no. What is it he thinks he’s discovered here? Again he’s preaching that less body movement produces more power in an indirect way. I still don’t get why Jim feels basic physics don’t apply to his pseudoscience of the golf swing. Being silly is fine, but don’t be fundamentally wrong.

[Double Mocha Man]

12 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Miserable video. I really can’t even understand  what he thinks a player watching this will gain. Blow my mind? Yeah no. What is it he thinks he’s discovered here? Again he’s preaching that less body movement produces more power in an indirect way. I still don’t get why Jim feels basic physics don’t apply to his pseudoscience of the golf swing. Being silly is fine, but don’t be fundamentally wrong.

I get it. Swing and snatch. And don't open the gate and let the cows out.

[Vinsk]

11 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I get it. Swing and snatch. And don't open the gate and let the cows out.

I can see this causing newbies to think they really just need to swing at the ball and forget everything else. Jim seems to believe that as long as the club travels inside to out, you’re better than a tour player. And of course he adds that he’s ‘ played a lot of professional golf.’ His constant reference to tour players and their ineffective swings is just comical. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Vinsk

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Miserable video. I really can’t even understand  what he thinks a player watching this will gain. Blow my mind? Yeah no. What is it he thinks he’s discovered here? Again he’s preaching that less body movement produces more power in an indirect way. I still don’t get why Jim feels basic physics don’t apply to his pseudoscience of the golf swing. Being silly is fine, but don’t be fundamentally wrong.

It's easy to pile on Jim.

But man, he really contradicts himself often. 

I will say this. I like his driving range. Although, if I was there, I'd probably go through a gallon of sunscreen each week.