Hogan lateral movement too much for most people?

[cartierbresson]

I've been fighting a steepening club shaft on the downswing for a year, and recently found that if I laterally shift on the downswing it gives me a ton of room "behind me" to get the club from the inside. Kind of like how Hogan did it:

I got into the same positions as he did, but most people who've seen me to do that, including my instructor, said there's too much lateral movement. If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much? If your answer is that it would depend on the member's particular swing, what criterion do you use to determine whether it's too much for that member?

Edited November 30, 2016 by cartierbresson

[Ernest Jones]

5 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

I've been fighting a steepening club shaft on the downswing for a year, and recently found that if I laterally shift on the downswing it gives me a ton of room "behind me" to get the club from the inside. Kind of like how Hogan did it:

I got into the same positions as he did, but most people who've seen me to do that, including my instructor, said there's too much lateral movement. If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much? If your answer is that it would depend on the member's particular swing, what criterion do you use to determine whether it's too much for that member?

Rather than show us pictures of Hogan's sequence and asking us if you're doing it correctly......why not post video of your swing and get the real poop?

[boogielicious]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Rather than show us pictures of Hogan's sequence and asking us if you're doing it correctly......why not post video of your swing and get the real poop?

I agree with @Ernest Jones on this, not the poop part , but the video part. Post a swing video in the Member Swings section @cartierbresson and let folks give you help.

[cartierbresson]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

I agree with @Ernest Jones on this, not the poop part , but the video part. Post a swing video in the Member Swings section @cartierbresson and let folks give you help.

This isn't about my swing, but answers to questions applicable to any swing. Those questions are:

• If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much?
• If your answer is that it would depend on the member's particular swing, what criterion do you use to determine whether it's too much for that member?

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind posting my swing video (I have in the past), but I want to keep my particular swing out of this discussion.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, cartierbresson said:

• If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much?

Maybe. Maybe not. Hogan slid his hips a LOT, so often his videos are instructive because people think he mostly "bumped" (small lateral movement) then turned.

I like a video of Justin Rose too.

1 hour ago, cartierbresson said:

• If your answer is that it would depend on the member's particular swing, what criterion do you use to determine whether it's too much for that member?

That depends on likely too many things to list (and if I tried I'd undoubtedly think of more things to add later). For example, what's the rest of their body or at least their torso doing? Are their knees extending at the proper rate? Are their hips turning at the proper rate? Are they lining up the shaft too early or too late? What's the right elbow doing and where is it?

Etc.

[Rainmaker]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

For example, what's the rest of their body or at least their torso doing? .

 Came here to say this, lol . . . . 

I had really ingrained what I thought was a hip slide.  Eventually through golf-therapy (lessons) I was finally able to admit it was actually a full-body slide.  I was all like . .No . .sliding your hips is the BIGGEST secret . . .which may be true . .but sliding your upper body is a different kind of secret . .the secret to why you suck at golf.  

[colin007]

On 11/30/2016 at 7:46 PM, Rainmaker said:

 Came here to say this, lol . . . . 

I had really ingrained what I thought was a hip slide.  Eventually through golf-therapy (lessons) I was finally able to admit it was actually a full-body slide.  I was all like . .No . .sliding your hips is the BIGGEST secret . . .which may be true . .but sliding your upper body is a different kind of secret . .the secret to why you suck at golf.  

Oh man, is that ever true...moving the upper center forward is a great way to ensure that you'll flip. I'm not just a member of that club, I'm the mother effing president!!

Anyways, on hip slide, I think I've seen @iacas say that is very rare that someone slide too far, or rather, longer than necessary.

[mchepp]

3 hours ago, colin007 said:

Anyways, on hip slide, I think I've seen @iacas say that is very rare that someone slide too far, or rather, longer than necessary.

Not sure I completely agree here. Moving the hips forward must be done in concert with rotation. Without rotation you'll stall and flip also.

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, mchepp said:

Not sure I completely agree here. Moving the hips forward must be done in concert with rotation. Without rotation you'll stall and flip also.

I agree with this, as well as what @colin007 said.

It's possible for the slide to dominate at the expense of the rotation. It's rare (still possible) for the slide to go on too far/too long.

Generally, at impact the hips should be pointing much closer to third base than second.

[mvmac]

On 11/30/2016 at 4:55 AM, cartierbresson said:

• If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much? 
• If your answer is that it would depend on the member's particular swing, what criterion do you use to determine whether it's too much for that member?

Yes I would say it depends on a bunch of things. I just wanted to point out that you can shallow the club and slide a little, you can shallow it turning and sliding at even rates and you can shallow it sliding and staying closed. The third one is not something you typically see with good players. Hogan slide a lot and turned a lot. You gotta do what's best for you and your swing.

[cartierbresson]

9 hours ago, mvmac said:

Yes I would say it depends on a bunch of things. I just wanted to point out that you can shallow the club and slide a little, you can shallow it turning and sliding at even rates and you can shallow it sliding and staying closed. The third one is not something you typically see with good players. Hogan slide a lot and turned a lot. You gotta do what's best for you and your swing.

How do I determine what's best for my swing? What do I do if I'm rebuilding my swing -- how do I know what's right for my body then? 

Quote

...what's the rest of their body or at least their torso doing?

Are their knees extending at the proper rate?

Are their hips turning at the proper rate?

Are they lining up the shaft too early or too late?

What's the right elbow doing and where is it?

Say I'm rebuilding my entire golf swing. How do I decide how much the "proper rate" for me is? Even Hogan doesn't keep his upper torso exactly where it is during the downswing: it shifts, albeit less than the lower body. "Keeping the upper body back" is vague, because if my lower body moves 6 inches, I can keep my upper body anywhere back between 1 and 6 inches and the resulting swings are very different. 

How do I assess my knee extension, hip turn, shaft lean etc in relation to my hip slide?

/* Update */ Would The Golfing Machine answer these questions? 

Edited December 3, 2016 by cartierbresson
swing machine suggestion

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, cartierbresson said:

How do I determine what's best for my swing? What do I do if I'm rebuilding my swing -- how do I know what's right for my body then? 

Say I'm rebuilding my entire golf swing. How do I decide how much the "proper rate" for me is? Even Hogan doesn't keep his upper torso exactly where it is during the downswing: it shifts, albeit less than the lower body. "Keeping the upper body back" is vague, because if my lower body moves 6 inches, I can keep my upper body anywhere back between 1 and 6 inches and the resulting swings are very different. 

How do I assess my knee extension, hip turn, shaft lean etc in relation to my hip slide?

/* Update */ Would The Golfing Machine answer these questions? 

Post some video and get some advice...

[iacas]

11 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Post some video and get some advice...

Or visit a good instructor.

Or sign up for evolvr (http://evolvr.com/)

[mvmac]

18 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

How do I determine what's best for my swing? What do I do if I'm rebuilding my swing -- how do I know what's right for my body then? 

I second what @Ernest Jones and @iacas said.

[cartierbresson]

1 minute ago, mvmac said:

I second what @Ernest Jones and @iacas said.

Posting my swing won't help -- because I have about twelve of them. That's what happens when you rebuild your swing over a year -- you collect all these different ideas and can execute a lot of them, but you don't know how the puzzle fits together. My typical miss and ball flight is a slice, but if you asked me to draw the ball, I could do it. I could change my swing so I could hit a flush 3-iron with a draw. But I know that swing has significant faults, so I don't want to adopt it. I can't imagine anyone who hasn't rebuilt their swing on their own who hasn't had similar struggles, and who at some point would have asked: how do I put the pieces together, and using what criterion?

What I hoped this discussion would be amount is what @iacas was alluding to earlier - how different parts of the body combine to produce the intended result. That discussion is independent of a particular swing, because the idea isn't to fix a swing flaw as it is to understand why a certain fix is being suggested. That's why it struck me that the Golf Machine may help, because the person who recommended the book told me it's based on physics, which is universally applicable in theory. 

When one goes to school to become a golf instructor, I imagine they don't say -- well why don't you share your own swing video so we can help you.

[iacas]

Some blunt talk because it's 1am here, but please bear in mind my intent here is to help…

5 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

Posting my swing won't help -- because I have about twelve of them.

I doubt it. They're probably far more similar than you think. If you do have "different" swings figure out which one is "best" and work on that. How?

1. Figure out what your priority piece is.
2. Work on that.
3. Re-evaluate what your priority piece is and go back to #1.

That's it.

5 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

I could change my swing so I could hit a flush 3-iron with a draw. But I know that swing has significant faults, so I don't want to adopt it. I can't imagine anyone who hasn't rebuilt their swing on their own who hasn't had similar struggles, and who at some point would have asked: how do I put the pieces together, and using what criterion?

The better question is why did you "rebuild" your swing? And why did you let yourself get to a point where you believe you have 12 different swings?

2 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

What I hoped this discussion would be amount is what @iacas was alluding to earlier - how different parts of the body combine to produce the intended result.

It's slightly different for everyone.

2 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

That discussion is independent of a particular swing, because the idea isn't to fix a swing flaw as it is to understand why a certain fix is being suggested.

That's what working with an instructor would get you.

2 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

That's why it struck me that the Golf Machine may help, because the person who recommended the book told me it's based on physics, which is universally applicable in theory.

It's also 50+ years old at this point. It won't help you. You need to find a good instructor and put your faith in them to do the thinking for you.

2 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

When one goes to school to become a golf instructor, I imagine they don't say -- well why don't you share your own swing video so we can help you.

I train instructors… and that's what I've told you to do.

Post your swing. I - and other instructors here, as well as people who know quite a bit about working on their golf swings - will comment.

There's no "one" answer for everyone, but everyone has a priority piece.

[cartierbresson]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Some blunt talk because it's 1am here, but please bear in mind my intent here is to help…

Blunt's good.

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I doubt it. They're probably far more similar than you think. If you do have "different" swings figure out which one is "best" and work on that. How?

1. Figure out what your priority piece is.
2. Work on that.
3. Re-evaluate what your priority piece is and go back to #1.

They are more similar than different, but I suspect they're more different than you think. I've been to the range about 4 times/week for the past one year (4x4x12 =~ 192 times/year). While not on the range, I've been watching videos and doing mirror work, clocking in more hours outside the range than in it. That's a lot of golf moves, and not all of them are congruent. It shouldn't be altogether surprising that someone who has been struggling with the game has that many different ways of hitting the ball. Even if it is surprising, it is what it is. 

"Priority" assumes I know how to prioritize, but that is the very topic of this discussion.

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

The better question is why did you "rebuild" your swing? And why did you let yourself get to a point where you believe you have 12 different swings?

Rebuilt it to a) improve b) understand the golf swing. Doesn't matter why I got to that point. You seem to think it's entirely a bad thing, I don't.

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's also 50+ years old at this point. 

So is Hogan's Five Fundamentals. Are there other reasons other than age that you wouldn't recommend The Golfing Machine?

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

You need to find a good instructor and put your faith in them to do the thinking for you.

I'm not a big fan of putting blind faith in instructors, golf or otherwise. I would argue that it is the very mindset of questioning the instructor that makes a better student. 

As I said before, I'm not shy of sharing my swing. I'm opposed to it for the purposes of this discussion because it's not required. I'm very happy just discussing Hogan's swing and learning more about why his particular hip slide works. That's educational.

[mvmac]

13 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

As I said before, I'm not shy of sharing my swing. I'm opposed to it for the purposes of this discussion because it's not required.

Yet the purpose of the discussion very much started your swing. In the OP you ask:

On 11/29/2016 at 10:16 PM, cartierbresson said:

I got into the same positions as he did, but most people who've seen me to do that, including my instructor, said there's too much lateral movement. If you saw the same amount of movement in a member swing, would you consider it too much?

Your answer to the question has been answered. It depends. On many factors, player's handicap, amount of rotation, trail elbow location, head/torso position, etc. There isn't one universal answer unfortunately. 

19 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

They are more similar than different, but I suspect they're more different than you think.

Have you filmed them? Do they look different?

I would just film the swing where you're just making your stock swing, your "play" swing.

23 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

So is Hogan's Five Fundamentals. Are there other reasons other than age that you wouldn't recommend The Golfing Machine?

Which is a book based on what Hogan felt and not what he actually did. The weak grip and restrictive pivot he promotes has hurt more players than he's helped.

35 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

Rebuilt it to a) improve b) understand the golf swing. Doesn't matter why I got to that point. You seem to think it's entirely a bad thing, I don't.

Good thread for you to check out.