Hogan lateral movement too much for most people?

[cartierbresson]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

Without seeing your swing the easiest way to do it would be to use the left knee as a guide. From the top of the backswing the knee will rotate counter-clockwise as it stays flexed. Basically it moves from inside the left ankle (knee points to about 12:30, 1:00) to a slightly outside the ankle (ankle around 10:30) by the time the shaft is parallel to the ground on the downswing. So the knee is transferring forward as it's rotating. Please understand this is a general guideline, not exactly what "has to" happen. Be less concerned about the amount/measurements and more focused on the motion.

Another way to feel it would be to get the hips open around 40 degrees by impact with the weight forward, left foot feeling"heavy".

 

Thank you @mvmac for that explanation and video. I'll try the drill on the range and report back.

[Phil McGleno]

7 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

@Hardspoon you're right, stupid monkey discussions belongs belong on the Stupid Monkey thread.

@No Mulligans it's not difficult posting a swing, just irrelevant to this discussion. Not a matter of hiding things either, since there's a video of my swing already in the Member Swings forum.

@iacas thank you for your...words.

Wow.-You are a 25 handicapper buddy. Maybe you should not be so glib and dismissive.

[iacas]

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

@iacas thank you for your...words.

Tell me how I'm wrong. You said you wanted blunt talk.

You're a 25, as @Phil McGleno noted. No way you're helping yourself by having "12 swings" (no way you have "12 swings" either), and no way you're at the point where you can discuss these little intricacies.

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

@billchao understand priority. I've found that simply being told what to do doesn't satisfy me: I want to know why. Asking questions isn't wrong and that's what I'm doing here. Of course, it may make it difficult to manage all that information, but I like a challenge. 

Asking why is never an issue, unless you never get out of asking why and onto actually practicing. At some point you've got to put what you know or what you're told into action.

Golf is challenging enough. You're going to get lost down the rabbit hole.

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

Without seeing your swing the easiest way to do it would be to use the left knee as a guide. From the top of the backswing the knee will rotate counter-clockwise as it stays flexed. Basically it moves from inside the left ankle (knee points to about 12:30, 1:00) to a slightly outside the ankle (ankle around 10:30) by the time the shaft is parallel to the ground on the downswing. So the knee is transferring forward as it's rotating. Please understand this is a general guideline, not exactly what "has to" happen. Be less concerned about the amount/measurements and more focused on the motion.

Bear in mind, Mike, that the guy is a 25.

---

Look, @cartierbresson, I'm happy to engage in theoretical discussions about the golf swing. I do it all the time, with fellow high-level instructors, and those looking to get to a high level that I train, and with golfers on the site.

But at the end of the day I'm an instructor and I'm looking to do what's best for a student, whether they're paying me or not. You're a golfer, and a student, and what's best for you as a 25 is not to worry about the intricacies of a little move that is almost certainly not your priority piece right now.

Edited: My suggestion? Post an updated swing to your already existing Member Swing thread.

 

I'll go have a look at that swing thread later.

[billchao]

10 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

My purpose of starting this discussion is learning the criteria for judging hip slide. I learned that it depends on the torso, knees, hip rotational rate etc, but going forward I'm hoping to learn more. If you feel like there might be a better resource for that information, I'd love to know what.

The problem with that is there is no textbook answer and if that's what you are looking for, you're not going to find it. Most pros fit into a certain range, but one person's just right is another's not enough simply based on other things that are going on in their swing.

And if you really want to know, then I suggest you start training under a good instructor to become one yourself, because that's probably the only way you are going to acquire that knowledge. Even I see no reason to dive that deep into swing theory (much of it which likely does not pertain to your particular swing) and I'm a swing junkie.

[acerimusdux]

As he said above, he's already done that. Apparently he did that 5 months ago, though it looks like the youtube account he linked to also has swing updates from 3 weeks ago.

It also looks like he got criticized there for "Everything you've posted so far has been about you and your swing", so maybe he's feeling a bit of "Damned if I do, Damned if I don't" at the moment.

 

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, acerimusdux said:

As he said above, he's already done that. Apparently he did that 5 months ago, though it looks like the youtube account he linked to also has swing updates from 3 weeks ago.

It also looks like he got criticized there for "Everything you've posted so far has been about you and your swing", so maybe he's feeling a bit of "Damned if I do, Damned if I don't" at the moment.

The criticism was accurate at the time.

But overall, yes, thank you for pointing out that he has a Member Swing thread. I'll check it out here soon.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, acerimusdux said:

It also looks like he got criticized there for "Everything you've posted so far has been about you and your swing", so maybe he's feeling a bit of "Damned if I do, Damned if I don't" at the moment.

Criticized? Hardly. It was just some advice I offered which was ignored. Neither here nor there now.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, billchao said:

Criticized? Hardly. It was just some advice I offered which was ignored. Neither here nor there now.

Not really even that, @billchao. It was correct at the time. He hadn't posted elsewhere at the time.

We're sometimes a bit overly sensitive to that, but some people just sign up for the free golf tips without contributing back.

This is all  though.

[billchao]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not really even that, @billchao. It was correct at the time. He hadn't posted elsewhere at the time.

We're sometimes a bit overly sensitive to that, but some people just sign up for the free golf tips without contributing back.

This is all  though.

Right, yea.

I find Hogan's lateral movement is easy as pie.

[iacas]

@cartierbresson, if your swing is at all like the one you posted in your Member Swing thread (and it likely is), then this is what I recommend:

Check it out. I wouldn't worry about your hip sliding right now.

[acerimusdux]

3 hours ago, billchao said:

Criticized? Hardly. It was just some advice I offered which was ignored. Neither here nor there now.

Yes, you gave some good advice, as well. Which to me makes it "constructive criticism". So I didn't mean to criticize you for criticizing. So I apologize if it came off that way. 

It's only that, people seemed to be talking past each other a bit in this thread. While the OP perhaps came across as being a bit stubborn, I think he was maybe only trying to keep discussion of his swing in that thread, and Ben Hogan's (and weight shift in general) in this thread.

And he has probably gotten some good advice here as well about usefulness of such a discussion of Ben Hogan's swing, for actual instructional purposes, but I doubt he's either the first or last who will want to do it anyway. :)

[DownAndOut]

Been reading through this thread but wondered whether the original question was wrong. Did Hogan have a hip slide (ie. active sliding of the hips)?

As far as I am aware I think he did a rotation and re-rotation and the net 'lateral movement'  actually  happened in the backswing. He rotated his right buttock  in the backswing (moving towards target) on the tush line, it remained in its position on the tush line as he re-rotated his left hip back to the tush- line. 

So to the obvious observer looking at a video face-on , it seems that he is sliding his hips but really he isn't. 

So imho (if you wish to copy Hogan's move) the extent of 'net lateral movement'  will depend on how much you can rotate that right hip and keep that buttock on the tush line 'as you re-rotate' your left hip, while staying in balance and keeping your upper swing centre relatively stable.

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DownAndOut said:

Been reading through this thread but wondered whether the original question was wrong. Did Hogan have a hip slide (ie. active sliding of the hips)?

Yes. Quite a dramatic one, by any measurement.

1 hour ago, DownAndOut said:

As far as I am aware I think he did a rotation and re-rotation and the net 'lateral movement'  actually  happened in the backswing.

It moved forward quite a bit during the downswing as well. It moved forward substantially less during the backswing.

1 hour ago, DownAndOut said:

So to the obvious observer looking at a video face-on , it seems that he is sliding his hips but really he isn't.

No. His hips slid forward quite a bit. This isn't an optical illusion:

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, DownAndOut said:

So to the obvious observer looking at a video face-on , it seems that he is sliding his hips but really he isn't. 

Like @iacas said, his hips move forward. Hogan's right foot even slides a little towards the target just after impact, similar to Greg Norman.

 

[DownAndOut]

Yes, it does look like a hip slide - my mistake.

[Etzwane]

On 12/4/2016 at 7:07 AM, cartierbresson said:

 

What I hoped this discussion would be amount is what @iacas was alluding to earlier - how different parts of the body combine to produce the intended result. That discussion is independent of a particular swing, because the idea isn't to fix a swing flaw as it is to understand why a certain fix is being suggested. That's why it struck me that the Golf Machine may help, because the person who recommended the book told me it's based on physics, which is universally applicable in theory.

I loved reading the Golfing Machine but this is a book targeted at instructors and it would take years of studies to master (and probably a number of sessions with a GSED...). Using it to improve one's swing is a real challenge (I tried and then followed Lynn Blake's forum and saw an Authorized Instructor). I like the book because it gives a framework to organise one's thoughts but e.g. there little biomecanics in there... then there's MORAD (I know very little of it) and S&T as a kind of TGM+MORAD+biomecanics to the extreme.