Swinging outward with long irons?

[Gaetano Fasano]

Hi everybody and happy new year!This will be my first post  and hope you'll get interested in. Please, be patient as for this very first time I'll have to introduce you a bit of my swing characteristics to better get to the point.

I want to share with you this sensation of mine, to better understand the subject, and compare on the subject.

I am a "mechanic-oriented" player. I like to study my body movements, also without the club in my hand, I spend a good amount of time at home with a mirror checking passages of arms, shoulder angles, evaluating pressure under the foots and staffs like this. Then I try to reproduce this sensations later on, at the range; sometimes I get too tied and prefer to do feeling-oriented range sessions to prepare the swing for the course and also verify how beneficial was the homework I made. 

Recently, I approach these feeling-sessions like this:

I get to the range and start my session with short irons and proceed to long irons (PW, 8i, 6i, 4i on day / 9i, 7i, 5i, the other and so on) with simple thoughts like "release toward the target" or "feel the club moving around the body" and I actually hit good shots up to 6i feeling decent contact with the ball (normally my ball draws).

When it comes to my first 4i (less with 5i), I generally hit a low hook feeling poor contact . At this point I try to adjust a bit my posture (generally adding some more secondary axis tilt) plus I try to feel like I keep the club-head going on a in-to-out path even after impact; this generally rewards me with a straight penetrating shot (not the highest I can hit) with a feeling of good contact.

Now, my personal idea is that the improvement derives from my arms having more space to extend after impact, not collapsing to the inside of my left side (I'am RH) but I'm not sure at all about this, it's just a sensation.

You can understand that, in such sessions, I don't pay much attention to club-head path (unless I want to draw or fade) as I'm focused on the target and this works fine with short (and, in a good part, also with middle) irons. I find it reasonable since (with short irons) low point is well further ahead of the ball and the club-head is still going outward after impact (besides downward). So I think that "the good" outward club-head direction comes for free with an 8 or 9i as opposed to a 4i shot where the low point is just after (or at) the ball with the club-head proceeding more inward (or straight for a very few time) after impact; look, I say "good" since resulting ball flight is a baby draw, as expected addressing the ball with the clubface facing the target or just a tiny bit open.

So I feel like I have to force a bit this outward impact direction, this pushing sensation (I actually try to visualize a small straight blur through the ball which is inclined just a bit towards the right of the target) to hit long irons properly (at least for my actual level / 22.8 index); doing this I generally hit a pretty straight 4i, which carry about 170y, not as consistently as the i7 but with good confidence, with occasional pronounced draws or small fades.

While I can quite easily adjust my setting on the range after such bad shots, I do hate the fact that my first long iron ends up hooking during a tournament (or simply practicing on my course) just because I forget to preset my self properly. I wish it would be more automatic, as the short irons, to focus about strategy or desired ball flight only. 

I am sure that part of my inconsistency with long irons depends on the fact that the ball is moved ahead (1 or 2 inches) in my stance respect to my more usual middle stance position (I play PW, 9i and 8i with the ball at about one inch ahead of the center of my sternum). As I hit more frequently short irons than longs or woods, especially on the course, I suspect I might be a bit polarized to that ball position. I can't still precisely understand how much this is influencing my movements but I do feel like I am not completely convinced with my ball position yet. Should I move it back, more to the middle, also playing a 4i? or... should I move it forward also with 8/9i? (e.g. I remember a video where Nicklaus suggests to keep the ball just inside the heel of the front foot, with all the clubs, to better exploit club-head low point..) maybe the latter would improve my weight shift, allowing a more "automatic" swing also with a 4 or 5 iron?!. But probably this would need a separate post.. forgive the extension on the ball position subject as I wanted involve you well in the context of this post.

BTW, consider that

> something similar happens with woods (I use 3 and 5) but that's a different story since with woods I try to sweep the turf below the ball (hence I use different feels) 

> I am used to setup with a close stance with long irons, sometimes even with middle irons, to favorite and in-to-out clubhead path; sometimes this happens in an almost unconsciously manner

> I swing back my left arm at shoulder (or just below shoulder) height... let's say more of a one-plane / flatter swing like.

> My miss-hits are generally fat shots

I cannot even exclude that my 5/4i are hit too much in-to-out  (due to the hooking result) and that my blur drill helps me to arrive less from the inside (in the past, I suffered a bit of shanking  when I was learning to come more from the inside to eliminate the slice; that time also happened to hit the inner part of the hosel ... the exposed part, not the one which connects with the club face). 

What do you think about this? Any similar sensation out there?

Thank you in advance and best regards!

[saevel25]

It is hard to say with out seeing your swing. I recommend starting a My Swing thread here, 

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/forum/13-member-swings/

 

 

[natureboy]

Regarding Nicklaus' and Hogan's lead heel ball position they had phenomenal moves from their trail leg to their lead side. If yours isn't as good, slightly further back toward a bit in front of the sternum may be helpful.

[RandallT]

Hello, @Gaetano Fasano!

Nice first post. It's a bit lengthy, so I think that scares some people off, and I've been meaning to respond. Lots of interesting feels there, and you certainly take a very analytical approach to what is happening with your body and the club movements. 

I'll try to summarize, before I answer:

1. During your practice sessions, you work your way up to the longer irons, and often find you need to adjust the sensation to a more outward swing to get good contact.
2. Your miss is typically a fat shot.
3. In tournaments, you find that your long irons let you down, and are prone to over-hooking

Due to all that, you're wondering about best ball positions and outward swinging feels with the long irons to gain more consistency. Is that about right?

I'm no instructor, but perhaps this thread might help get a more consistent draw:

I don't see direct answers there to your question about ball position or swinging outward, but perhaps you can find some nuggets of use to you.

Here are some past discussion that talk about ball position, in case that helps:

https://thesandtrap.com/search/?&q=xjebdwkjsdf&item=76114&tags=ball position&eitherTermsOrTags=or

Lastly, I did not make it to Udine, but I spent some time in Aviano and travelling around a bit near you this past August. I made it to Trieste (walked the Grotta Gigante- WOW!), plus did some jaunts up into the Dolomites. My avatar is the little course on the Aviano Air Force Base, although I did not get to play a round there. Just had a drink or two at the clubhouse and relaxed. My avatar is a nice reminder of the wonderful trip! Cheers.

 

[Gaetano Fasano]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:05 PM, saevel25 said:

It is hard to say with out seeing your swing. I recommend starting a My Swing thread here, 

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/forum/13-member-swings/

 

 

Hi saevel25 and thank you.

Just done. Videos have been taken this morning.

BR

 

[natureboy]

Another point to consider about Nicklaus' ball position. He used a varying width stance. That usually influences effective ball position and angle of attack through impact.

[rehmwa]

Can't help.  As I progress to my longer irons, I actually have to do the opposite (I think LESS about draw) or my contact gets poor.  I pretty much just think straight or even light fade to make sure I get a better chance at making good contact.  I can shape the shorter irons quite effectively, so I 'believe' I have good path control there.  I'm a bit psych'd out on the longer irons and sometimes just say the heck with it and grab a hybrid - especially when faced with 5i on a tee......(easily my biggest nemesis).

So I likely come in too tight to my body on the longer irons and just making poor contact.  You sound like something similar and maybe face is getting wacked too.  Seems the longer clubs it is easier to turn the hands over too soon.  the longer the club, the more I have to think about 'holding off' on the 'release' (whatever that is - I mean just face control more towards open at contact).  Either case, having to 'consciously' compensate indicates we're not quite yet dialed in.  Maybe the long irons we're too steep?

a video is worth a thousand.....but path itself isn't the easiest thing to spot on vid.. though I bet a few guys here can maybe spot something indicative/related

[Piz]

I struggled with a slice for many years until, with the help of an instructor, I realized that my visualization was off a few minutes.  That was 16 years ago and ever since, with the longer clubs, I set up square and imagine starting the ball in the direction of 12:02 rather than 12:00.  It is a very minor adjustment that, for me, makes quite a difference.  I don't have to fuss with my stance, grip, posture, takeaway, blah, blah, blah...I only have to concede that my concept of straight is off by two minutes and proceed accordingly.

[Gaetano Fasano]

On 1/6/2017 at 6:29 PM, RandallT said:

My avatar is the little course on the Aviano Air Force Base, although I did not get to play a round there. Just had a drink or two at the clubhouse and relaxed. 

Hello @RandallT

I didn't know there where a golf course inside Aviano air force base! Thank you so much for this information. It's incredible that someone from US is showing new places where to play nearby me ?.  

Quote

I'm no instructor, but perhaps this thread might help get a more consistent draw:

I'm reading the posts you suggested, how ever I don't have problem hitting draws, thats my natural ball flight. The rest you said is the proper interpretation.

Cheers

[JonMA1]

Hopefully someone can confirm or correct me on this, but from what I understand a hook (pull hook) can easily result from an out-to-in path, or at least one that is less in-to-out. It just depends on how the face is open or closed relative to the path.

Is there any chance the path on your long irons is not as in-to-out as you feel?

Much as @Piz described, the thought of swinging towards the right helps me improve my path. I have to use something more extreme than 12:02 (mine is more like 12:10), but it's the only way I can occasionally hit a push draw with my longer irons. My alignment and stance won't change, just my target.

It's just a thought and the same thought won't work for everyone.

[natureboy]

6 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Hopefully someone can confirm or correct me on this, but from what I understand a hook (pull hook) can easily result from an out-to-in path, or at least one that is less in-to-out. It just depends on how the face is open or closed relative to the path.

Is there any chance the path on your long irons is not as in-to-out as you feel?

Much as @Piz described, the thought of swinging towards the right helps me improve my path. I have to use something more extreme than 12:02 (mine is more like 12:10), but it's the only way I can occasionally hit a push draw with my longer irons. My alignment and stance won't change, just my target.

It's just a thought and the same thought won't work for everyone.

That's a good point. Angle of attack through impact will affect the relative path with more sweeping contact decreasing the relative horizontal path / swing direction.

[Gaetano Fasano]

18 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Hopefully someone can confirm or correct me on this, but from what I understand a hook (pull hook) can easily result from an out-to-in path, or at least one that is less in-to-out. It just depends on how the face is open or closed relative to the path.

Hi JonMA1. Actually you can hook with either in-to-out or out-to-in path (being easier with the former).  

20 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Is there any chance the path on your long irons is not as in-to-out as you feel?

yes, it is, since the ball is more ahead in my stance with long irons (so the low point is about under or just after the ball) the path should be more like in-out-in. I think I get to impact with too a closed face (pointing left of the target) and a straight-path (and that results in a pull-draw / hooky flight).

After posting my swing, I understood that I probably miss some secondary tilt during impact; this should lead to a club face more open and the path a bit shifted to the right automatically (I'm working on this now).

[SouthpawDraw87]

i can relate. I play an open stance with all my my short irons. almost a slight fade. my first shot shape of choice with my driver is a cut. my long irons 4,5,6 all feel natural to me playing a draw. I rarely try to deviate from the draw with my long irons. if it feels good, let it rip!!