Q&A for Chris Buie, Author, The Life & Times of Donald Ross

[iacas]

Chris Buie, author of "The Life and Times of Donald Ross," by Chris Buie, is a recently published book FULL of photographs by Classics of Golf. You can read a bit more about it here: https://classicsofgolf.com/product/life-times-donald-ross/ .

During the early years of the 20th Century, golf became a fundamental part of the American Dream. Perhaps more than any other individual, Donald Ross helped to establish the sport in his new country. 

His place in history has essentially been that of a prolific architect who created some of the finest examples of the form. However, the true extent of his achievements go well beyond the consensus view. 

With surpassing style and insight, The Life & Times of Donald Ross reconfigures his place in history and establishes the man as a notable figure in the broader field of American culture.

Or click this link: http://amzn.to/2kR9dOE or https://classicsofgolf.com/product/life-times-donald-ross/ .

 

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We get to ask a few questions of Chris. Ask about writing a book, ask about Donald Ross, ask about his golf game. Nothing is off-limits (just use common sense and good taste), though of course Chris isn't at all obligated to answer, either.

Post your questions. Go ahead.

[DaveP043]

First, there's an interview with Chris Buie here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-no-2-with-chris-buie/

My questions:

I've played all (I think) of the Ross courses around Pinehurst, and enjoy every one.  Is there a list of other Ross courses around the country that can be played by normal public golfers?

I've read that Mr Buie enjoys the Southern Pines GC.  Is there any chance that the "lost" 9 holes there will ever be restored?  Those holes are still plainly visible on Google Earth.  Are there any other "lost" Ross courses which might someday be resored to use?

[mcanadiens]

This is extremely specific. I understand if there isn't much to be said. 

One of my local courses is Miami Shores GC in Troy, OH. As near as I understand Mr. Ross designed the course very near the end of his life (the course opened in 1947). It's always sort of been neat to think that greatness touched one of our local munis. I do understand they have substantially changed both nines since then and would love to have seen it as Ross created it. 

Any details on this project would be really cool.

[saevel25]

I love his courses. One of my favorites is Brookside Country Club in Canton, Ohio. They found Ross's old plans and took out thousands of trees, and restored a lost tee box. The course is fantastic. 

 

[jamo]

I suppose my first question is the obvious one: What's his favorite Ross course?

[iacas]

5 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I love his courses. One of my favorites is Brookside Country Club in Canton, Ohio. They found Ross's old plans and took out thousands of trees, and restored a lost tee box. The course is fantastic. 

What's your question, Matt?

[iacas]

Here are a few questions…

• Donald Ross is listed as the designer of the Lake Course at Chautauqua Golf Club in Chautauqua, NY. There are drawings in the Learning Center of several holes (possibly all 18). But I'm not sure Donald Ross was ever on the property. How many courses - or a percentage maybe - did he design without ever really stepping foot on the property?
• Golf course architects are often famous for creating a certain type of hole or style of play - the Redan green, the penal style of play, etc. What is Donald Ross's lasting legacy in this narrow context?
• Donald Ross trained and worked with Dan Maples' grandfather, and Dan Maples has made a bit of a name for himself in the Pinehurst area as well. What other architects can trace a very direct line to Donald Ross?
• A bit of an odd question… Donald Ross supposedly designed the Delray Beach Golf Club's front nine (or back nine?). Do you have information on whether he visited the site, or was this another "postcard" type design?
• What would surprise golfers to know about Donald Ross as a man? I've read he was very religious without being showy about it. Did he have any other hobbies? He played golf well, but how'd he spend his free time? Did he have any?
• What was Donald Ross's biggest regret? A course that didn't live up to its potential, a site he didn't get to develop… what?
• What did you learn about Donald Ross that most surprised you in researching this book?

I'll add more later as I think of them.

[saevel25]

On 2/23/2017 at 10:55 PM, iacas said:

What's your question, Matt?

Sorry, I missed the part at the bottom of your post about questions. 

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1. Did Donald Ross every visit the location for Brookside Country Club in Canton, Ohio when it was being designed and/or built?
2. If Donald Ross didn't visit the site of a golf course when asked to design it, what process did he use to design the golf courses? Did he required any sort of geographical information, like a survey?
3. How would you describe his philosophy when it came to designing a golf course?

[Chris Buie]

Hello, it is great to join The Sand Trap! Apologies for not getting to your questions earlier.

Let's see...

Is there a list of other Ross courses around the country that can be played by normal public golfers?

Dave, thanks for the question.
My friend Paul Dunn just republished his book called:
Great Donald Ross Golf Courses Everyone Can Play
I thoroughly enjoyed the book and it is specifically geared for courses open to everyone.

Also, in the back of my book is the current list of all known Ross courses. One of the notations is whether they are public, private, semi-private, etc.
https://classicsofgolf.com/product/life-times-donald-ross/

I've read that Mr Buie enjoys the Southern Pines GC.  Is there any chance that the "lost" 9 holes there will ever be restored?
Yes, I certainly enjoy SPGC. I've been playing it for about 40 years and still have not gotten tired of it. The 'lost 9' is the course I learned to play on. It was $22...for the summer. It's good to have boys out there running around all day - less mischief and mayhem.
Yes, it is possible they could re-open that course. I don't think they are going to put buildings or anything else on there. I would imagine it would return at some point in the not too terribly distant future. Right now it is just overgrown. But they do mow it regularly so...we'll see!

[Club Rat]

I've only had a chance to play a few of DR courses living in the Midwest but I certainly enjoyed those which I have played.

When other golfers talk about his courses, I've heard you either Love them or Hate them. Is this a fair evaluation of his style?
Also, I've heard his courses are mainly about the greens and the short game. I recall they truly tested them both.
What stands out most about DR courses in your opinion, Chris?

Thanks for bringing a great subject to TST.
 

[jsgolfer]

I was a Member at Penobscot Valley CC in Orono, ME for a while.  And have played many Donald Ross courses over the years, it seems like he made a big traverse up 95 (Augusta CC, Waterville CC (Fluff Cowan was a member) and Portland CC) and I've played them all, but Lucerne Golf Club which is also a Donald Ross design is only 9 holes and isn't much like any of the others.  Did he actually visit the Lucerne area to see the course or was this a "postcard" design?  And are there very many Donald Ross 9 hole courses remaining?

Edit-lots of 9 hole courses remaining.

2nd Edit- Looking at the list at the DR Society, I've played 26 of his courses.

[Chris Buie]

It was great fun to research Mr. Ross's odyssey. The book turns up quite a few new items. I have files for many courses but not all of them. When I get a chance I will give you some pointers in looking up clubs you are interested in.
I didn't see anything notable in my files about Miami Shores or Delray Beach - although the drawing of DB is terrific.
However, I did have a file regarding Chautauqua. It looks like he did visit there. The article is attached, I think.

I will be back answering more questions soon!
Thanks

[DaveP043]

I know DR grew up in Dornoch, Scotland, in fact I've stayed at a B&B right near his boyhood home (if we can believe the plaque on the front).  Did he have much to do with the evolution of the golf course at Royal Dornoch?

[WUTiger]

Chris,

I'm more familiar with Alister MacKenzie as an early modern architect. Probably because of his ties to the British military, and his involvement with developing camouflage schemes during WWI. That said, I do have some questions regarding Ross:

Q1: What features of modern golf course architecture would Donald Ross find most alarming?

Q2: What would Donald Ross think of the lob wedge?

[Chris Buie]

 How many courses - or a percentage maybe - did he design without ever really stepping foot on the property?

It has been estimated that he did not visit approximately 1/4 of the courses he designed.

    Golf course architects are often famous for creating a certain type of hole or style of play - the Redan green, the penal style of play, etc. What is Donald Ross's lasting legacy in this narrow context?

I would say high point to high point. That referrs to the terrain. There were a lot of par-3's like that, but also some other holes, as well. It was done for drainage but also made for good golfing.

Here's the 5th and the 10th holes of Pinehurst No. 1 - both high point to high point:

 

    Donald Ross trained and worked with Dan Maples' grandfather, and Dan Maples has made a bit of a name for himself in the Pinehurst area as well. What other architects can trace a very direct line to Donald Ross?
That's a very good question. It could be answered any number of ways. I'm not sure the design style worked sort of like the secret recipe of an Italian restaurant where only those privy were able to make a comparable sauce.
Ellis Maples was Ross's primary protege as far as design goes. And he had his own style, as has Dan Maples.
What Ross did is available to be studied. There are some who have studied Ross intently and have an impressive knowledge of how he went about things. When you put together knowledge and talent then you will get brilliant work. So, while there may be a certain degree of information which can be learned from being within a family or organization, it does not appear there is a direct line which carries the original work on. It may carry a measure of it but other factors seem to be more important. This is all to say that someone who knows Ross thoroughly and is talented will be able to carry on the style as well as anyone.

That's my take on it at the moment. If I thought about it more I might answer a bit differently.

    What would surprise golfers to know about Donald Ross as a man? I've read he was very religious without being showy about it. Did he have any other hobbies? He played golf well, but how'd he spend his free time? Did he have any?
He didn't have much free time but he did have some other hobbies. He rode horses and he was very keen on his rose garden. He really loved dogs too. He did not like it when a person could only talk about golf.

    What was Donald Ross's biggest regret? A course that didn't live up to its potential, a site he didn't get to develop… what?
Hmm, that's a good question. Any answer would only be speculation. As you know he was extraordinarily realized. I doubt there was much he wanted to do golf wise he hadn't already done. He was properly angry about not winning the 1910 British Open at St. Andrews. He was winning in the 3rd round at one point. He had a stellar day...and they threw all the scores for that day out! (Because of an intense storm).
I would guess he was sorry he didn't get to spend more time with his family in Scotland. He did what he wanted to do and he would have preferred to build the game in America as he did to a less eventful life. There was no way he could do both. But he probably missed the family and friends in Dornoch.

    What did you learn about Donald Ross that most surprised you in researching this book?
He was extraordinarily principled. I knew he was an upright citizen but he just did not like to do things the wrong way. So, he made himself do things as he thought the proper way was.

A bit of an odd question… Donald Ross supposedly designed the Delray Beach Golf Club's front nine (or back nine?). Do you have information on whether he visited the site, or was this another "postcard" type design?

He did a design for Delray Beach. It would be a mistake to be dismissive about the ones he did from a topo. He knew what he was doing and he wasn't going to have his name on something that was not up to par. Sure the ones he did not visit could have been better. The places could have had him visit but usually they did not have the money. They understood what they were getting and they were sure that the golfing would at a minimum be adequate. The design below looks pretty darn good, does it not?

I'll answer as many questions as I can when I get the chance. I'm happy to!

 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Chris Buie said:

I didn't see anything notable in my files about Miami Shores or Delray Beach - although the drawing of DB is terrific.

Do you have the drawing? Is it in your book?

Edit: never mind.  You beat me to it by a few seconds. Thank you Chris.

[Chris Buie]

What would Donald Ross think of the lob wedge?
He would not like it. He did not like Sarazen's breakthrough with the sand wedge. Basically, he thought if the clubs were doing the work instead of the golfer then he didn't look kindly upon that. I have an article that specifically addresses that. I'll see if I can find it.

What features of modern golf course architecture would Donald Ross find most alarming?
In America the game is almost entirely aerial. He would be extremely upset to see the loss of the ground game - especially on his own courses. Watching the shot bump and run was a big part of the fun and the design. Taking that away from the game is unfortunate.

 Did he have much to do with the evolution of the golf course at Royal Dornoch?
Very little. It's said he made a couple of suggestions when he returned later in life. I'm not sure if they were employed or not. I've heard different things.
Dornoch was mainly a combination of Old Tom and John Sutherland. Sutherland tinkered with the course for at least half of a century so it's his course as much as anyones.

When other golfers talk about his courses, I've heard you either Love them or Hate them. Is this a fair evaluation of his style?
I actually haven't heard that opinion before. And, as you can imagine, I've heard a lot! I don't think he or his work are polarizing. I know people who prefer other designers and some think some of his courses are a bit bland (now). But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone hating his courses. Well, if hundreds of thousands look at your work there's going to be a few with unusual opinions.

Also, I've heard his courses are mainly about the greens and the short game. I recall they truly tested them both.
Greens and short game were certainly top of his list. But he was thoroughly involved in the rest of it as well. He was very much into angles off the tee, into the greens. It's amusing to watch pros aim for the flag with their approach shots on Pinehurst No. 2. There are places you do not want to miss and going at the flag, they can end up in some nasty places. If you don't think your way around that course you're in for a looong day. Not considering the best place to miss it is a big mistake. I usually tell first timers just to aim for the middle of the green - not at the flag.
So, the green complexes were more intricate than most of the tee shots areas. But there was plenty of thought in them too.

What stands out most about DR courses in your opinion, Chris?
They accommodate wide varieties of playing capability. That is, a pretty high handicapper and the ace can play the same course and have a good time. Once experienced, he liked to design a course within a course. A way for the not so talented to get around ok, while at the same time if the ace was trying to score then he'd have to challenge some hazards.
I think it was a big mistake when others made courses with only one way to play them and making them so difficult that people on in years couldn't really handle them. So, designing with both in mind was brilliant and kept things fun for everyone - or most everyone!

I'll be back with more responses soon.

[Chris Buie]

Here is the article from 1942 which addresses 'advances' in clubs.