Hands too far forward at address..

[lastings]

As I have been working on some things, critical to my swing, over the past few months, I have noticed a gradual change in my setup.  My Hands are now too far forward at address,  The issues I've been working on, which has created this are: 

*moving my arms and torso as one in the takeaway.  
*Keeping my left arm straight
full shoulder turn
*bowed left wrist in downswing
*hands in front of ball at impact

I don't have a swing video of me (I will as soon as I am able to get outside), but I did find a picture on the internet of a guy in a similar position. 

 (my hands are even a touch more forward than this)

 

Now, It seems to me that this wrist position is where I want to be during the backswing and through impact, So my body, as a natural response, has resorted to cheating and starting in that position.   It seems to set me up to do all the things I want to do.   

Furthermore, my club head seems to be catching up with my hands a bit in the downswing.   I am not hitting the ball with an extremely closed face.  I can tell this as I don't have a problem with pull hooking and I am doing a good job of getting the ball up in the air.   I am striking the ball very well, center face, penetrating ball flight with a nice draw right now.   That said, my natural mishit, at the moment, is when I don't come far enough from the inside I start the ball straight and draw it about 10-13 yds left of my target.   

Another thing to note, is that my grip is pretty heavy on the strong side. 

So..  here is my question?  

what are the downsides to an exaggerated shaft lean at address?   Is doing this potentially masking some other flaw in my swing, that is sure to rear its ugly head at some point?  Or, could it be that this set up position is a good mental trigger for my body to do the things I want it to do?  

 

 

[Lihu]

I've also been told to setup more straight as well, but there was no change in my swing as a consequence?

It seems like there shouldn't be an issue with it other than it looking "non-professional", but OTOH we're not anyway.

[colin007]

3 hours ago, lastings said:

  That said, my natural mishit, at the moment, is when I don't come far enough from the inside I start the ball straight and draw it about 10-13 yds left of my target.   

This doesn't make sense. If it starts straight and curves left, you're coming from the inside.

[lastings]

2 minutes ago, colin007 said:

This doesn't make sense. If it starts straight and curves left, you're coming from the inside.

when I don't come *far enough* from the inside.  

still coming from the inside, but not far enough so that the ball starts right and draws back to the middle.   on the mishits (mis-swing), the ball starts at the target and then draws about 10 yds left (which is mostly a consequence of me not bumping my hip quick enough to make room for my hands). 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by lastings

[colin007]

11 minutes ago, lastings said:

when I don't come *far enough* from the inside.  

still coming from the inside, but not far enough so that the ball starts right and draws back to the middle.   on the mishits (mis-swing), the ball starts at the target and then draws about 10 yds left (which is mostly a consequence of me not bumping my hip quick enough to make room for my hands). 

 

 

That's a clubface issue, not a path issue. Come further from the inside and you'll just hit bigger hooks left. Deliver the clubface slightly open to the target, with the path a little farther to right of the clubface, and the ball will start to the right of the target and curve back to it.

Example - Clubface 2° right, path 4° right.

[lastings]

Just now, colin007 said:

That's a clubface issue, not a path issue. Come further from the inside and you'll just hit bigger hooks left. Deliver the clubface slightly open to the target, with the path a little farther to right of the clubface, and the ball will start to the right of the target and curve back to it.

Example - Clubface 2° right, path 4° right.

ok.   interesting.  

might be difficult to diagnose without a video (it's coming soon, I promise).    But, that much said, the mishit is not terribly frequent.  

Would you suggest that my setup is (probably) the driver of this face issue?  

 

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, lastings said:

when I don't come *far enough* from the inside.  

still coming from the inside, but not far enough so that the ball starts right and draws back to the middle.   on the mishits (mis-swing), the ball starts at the target and then draws about 10 yds left (which is mostly a consequence of me not bumping my hip quick enough to make room for my hands).

Or getting stuck?

[lastings]

Just now, Lihu said:

Or getting stuck?

yes, as well.   something different in every swing, y'know?

[colin007]

20 minutes ago, lastings said:

ok.   interesting.  

might be difficult to diagnose without a video (it's coming soon, I promise).    But, that much said, the mishit is not terribly frequent.  

Would you suggest that my setup is (probably) the driver of this face issue?  

 

You could always try setting up to the ball with a slightly open clubface and see how that works. Or just be aware of how forward the hands are, maybe set them just left of your fly instead of all the way out at the hip?

[roamin]

I can't help with the hands forward at setup question. I wonder myself and experiment from time to time.

However, as @colin007  alluded to, very important to know why the ball curves the way it does. The blog post and thread below are definitive references on the subject.

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Also, the video is crucial. You mentioned it yourself, but I'd argue it's more than difficult to diagnose and closer to impossible. I'd imagine even @iacas would say that he could tell you things that might be happening (and honestly, he'd probably nail it), but that there's no way to be sure without seeing it.
 

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

4 hours ago, lastings said:

That said, my natural mishit, at the moment, is when I don't come far enough from the inside I start the ball straight and draw it about 10-13 yds left of my target.   

This doesn't make sense. If it starts straight and curves left, you're coming from the inside.

I think I know what you meant there. If the relationship between your hands(clubface) and path doesn't change when the path moves further right (in to out), then you'd start the ball more right with the same amount of curve (and since it started right, it's curving back to the target instead of away from it). However,  I'm not sure I'd bet that's what is actually happening so, again, the video is crucial. 

In my experience, slowing things down can help a lot (with diagnosis). Best of luck! 

[iacas]

@lastings, two things:

• Yes, please learn the ball flight laws. Swinging out more will simply lead to bigger hooks.
• If your ball position is too far back, it's easier to have your hands too far forward. Check your ball position too.

[lastings]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

@lastings, two things:

• If your ball position is too far back, it's easier to have your hands too far forward. Check your ball position too.

This is probably part of it.  The club angle is more severe with my short irons, and I do put the ball progressively further back in my stance is the irons get shorter..  

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

@lastings, two things:

• Yes, please learn the ball flight laws. Swinging out more will simply lead to bigger hooks.

Thing is, this is not what's happening.  When I swing out (or, have the feeling of swinging out) the draw is not getting sharper, it is simply starting right and drawing back to the middle.  Where as when I don't swing out as much, the ball starts straight and draws (same amount of draw) to the left.  

Edited April 20, 2017 by lastings

[Lihu]

26 minutes ago, lastings said:

This is probably part of it.  The club angle is more severe with my short irons, and I do put the ball progressively further back in my stance is the irons get shorter..  

Yeah true, but he was just asking you to double check if you aren't too far back for your "standard" position and shot. That's very good advice. If your ball flight is too low, then that kind of indicates that the ball is too far back in your stance. Which could be one of the things leading you to setup with a tilted shaft. It could also be that the shafts are too long, or whatever. There are many reasons, but checking the obvious isn't a bad idea.

For instance, in my case, it was just an utterly stupid bad "habit" that took me conscious effort to stop doing.

 

26 minutes ago, lastings said:

Thing is, this is not what's happening.  When I swing out (or, have the feeling of swinging out) the draw is not getting sharper, it is simply starting right and drawing back to the middle.  Where as when I don't swing out as much, the ball starts straight and draws (same amount of draw) to the left.  

Feel is not real, but ball flights are real, and have a direct cause and effect.

Once you learn those laws you can immediately tell what you did wrong in your swing. It'll become somewhat instinctive.

 

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, lastings said:

Thing is, this is not what's happening.  When I swing out (or, have the feeling of swinging out) the draw is not getting sharper, it is simply starting right and drawing back to the middle.  Where as when I don't swing out as much, the ball starts straight and draws (same amount of draw) to the left.  

A draw happens when your club path is to the right of the clubface alignment at impact.  Your standard "push draw" happens when the clubface is pointed right of the target, where the ball starts, and your path is even more right, producing a draw.  If your path is a little straighter but still right, but the clubface is pointed at the target, you'll get a shot that starts at the target and draws to the left of it.  You can't really tell either the face alignment or path while you're swinging, but the ball flight tells you what's happening, no matter what you feel.

[TN94z]

Maybe playing with your ball position is causing a different manipulation in your hands which is giving you an inconsistent club face angle on these swings and confusing you on where your path actually is. I could see someone holding the face open when they really try to swing out more which would cause the ball to not draw more as expected. Everything you seem to be describing is club face related. The ball flight laws will really open your eyes on why your shots are doing what they are doing. The video will also tell you a lot and most likely will show you that what you "feel" the swing doing is not what you're doing at all.

Edited April 20, 2017 by TN94z

[iacas]

14 hours ago, lastings said:

Thing is, this is not what's happening.  When I swing out (or, have the feeling of swinging out) the draw is not getting sharper, it is simply starting right and drawing back to the middle.  Where as when I don't swing out as much, the ball starts straight and draws (same amount of draw) to the left.  

As others have said, you're not really able to tell what the clubface angle is during a swing… except by knowing where you struck the shot on the clubface and observing the ball flight.

[phillyk]

14 hours ago, lastings said:

Thing is, this is not what's happening.  When I swing out (or, have the feeling of swinging out) the draw is not getting sharper, it is simply starting right and drawing back to the middle.  Where as when I don't swing out as much, the ball starts straight and draws (same amount of draw) to the left.  

I get what you are saying here, but it's more complicated than a simple feeling of swinging out.  When I see people come through too fast with their arms, the face closes fast and you get that hook.  But when they try to swing out more, they get the lower body moving better too which allows the arms to move through the zone better and the face isn't in that same closed position as before.  Try to get slo-mo video, and it'll be easier to find out.

In regards to the hands too far forward, I think it's ok so long as angle of attack remains similar.

[lastings]

ok..   I think its safe to say that video is necessary here.   Soon enough.  I'm sure that eventually the sun is going to shine in this state.