Jump to content
IGNORED

The lead knee mechanics


Note: This thread is 2487 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
4 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I think that my point is that the old school style imo is similar in terms of sequence and weight shift to a baseball homerun hitter.

No. It's not.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I thought I would mention some thoughts on a left knee motion during the backswing in which the left knee flexes a little and moves towards the toes of the left foot.  It's what Tom Watson said not to do with the left knee...Imo Tom was talking about a certain way he knows about-he was not saying he knows what works or not period.  Many concepts can work and simple common sense proves this out...

This left knee move is very compatible with extension in the right leg.  Theoretically at least,  your right hip should have good depth which creates much useful space in which to work from the good inside angle.  I am picturing right now what Iacas shared in the older video he asked me to study (which I did).  I am talking about what he did on the right.  My honest opinion on this is that it's way easier than something old school.  It's miles easier than the Mickey Wright old fashioned swing I have been talking about.  That puts you in a position theoretically at least at the top where you will approach from inside.  Very good thing.  It's much easier to maintain a stable head or steady axis from there which is very good for consistency.  If you do this there's a ton of rooms for the arms.  Many different arm hand preferences would be fine from this-for example a guy who wants to nail it with the right hand or also a guy or girl I guess who wants to swing more with the left.  It's making things easier and I like it.  There's a lot of easy energy to be had in a club swinging on a nice stable center from the inside.  Some people would say oh you can't do that with driver and it's total bs.  Part of the reason I am saying this is when I had the TGM book and was working from it years ago I worked and worked to eliminate unnecessary movement for a time and settled in on what felt like to me I was presetting my right hip a touch deep (very similar to the position Iacas showed in that video).   I was presetting a bit of extension in the right leg and not really worrying about trying to move the hips from that position.  I played pretty darn good for me with this under 80 many times because of hitting a lot of greens.  It was easy to approach greens with this as well as play from strange slopes which is a huge weakness in the left knee breaks in old fashioned move imo because imo you have to modify that motion or punch or something a lot on hilly courses with tough lies.   I got comments from people that my swing looked fluid while doing this,  sadly I deleted a ton of video documentation of what I was doing sometime ago and I have no footage,  my bad.

I would say if you combine this left and right knee action with a proper swinging motion of the club there's definitely not much reason to shoot much over 80 on courses like I play based on ballstriking alone due imo primarily to the stability in the swings center with a good inside attack.

I was just thinking while at lunch today that my comments in the thread have been focused on a certain method or style.  I have to admit that what I have been referring to is not the simplest way to go.  IMO elimination of moving parts makes a ton of sense and I believe I saw a guy ask Colin Montgomerie once something about the swing and Monty VEHEMENTLY replied "If it doesn't need to move...don't move it".  There's really not much you can say to that from a common sense and logic perspective.

So please feel free to also add comments on left knee motion unrelated to the old fashioned Mickey Wright deal if you feel the need.  

There's no reason to make this thread some war of words for no reason.  That's pointless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

There's no reason to make this thread some war of words for no reason.  That's pointless.

Nobody's doing that.

Know what else is pointless? Saying something, having someone who knows a thing or two responding with "No. It's not." and then just ignoring it like that exchange didn't happen.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I thought I would mention some thoughts on a left knee motion during the backswing in which the left knee flexes a little and moves towards the toes of the left foot.

I don't really care what Tom Watson thinks he does or why he does it. I care what he actually does.

Tom, like a lot of players decades ago, let his left knee move in a little. Cool. Nobody here seems to have any problem with that.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

This left knee move is very compatible with extension in the right leg.

Nobody's said differently. I'm still not seeing the point of this topic.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, iacas said:

No. It's not.

Ok,  this link is very quick and it's Wright talking about her swing.  She says she wanted good footwork and she worked the weight from right foot to left foot.

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/mickey-wright-talks-about-her-golf-swing/

Heres another photo of her backswing...Left knee broken in and right knee flexed and she said weight on the right.

IMG_1593.thumb.PNG.2b23232fef291aa5cc3c8d11c7a47a1a.PNG

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
6 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  this link is very quick and it's Wright talking about her swing.  She says she wanted good footwork and she worked the weight from right foot to left foot.

Again, @Jack Watson, I don't care what people say they did. I care what they actually did. And your response has nothing to do with a "baseball homerun hitter."

6 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Heres another photo of her backswing...Left knee broken in and right knee flexed and she said weight on the right.

Again, her right knee has extended from where it was at setup. The trail knee is not the topic here.

I asked you earlier what the point of this topic was, and as far as I can tell, you don't know. The topic seems to be "let me post pictures and video and just say whatever," so I'll simply leave it to you, @Jack Watson. Enjoy.

If you wanna swing like Mickey Wright, go ahead. There are far worse models you could choose.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I've read this entire post and my head hurts. Perhaps it's due to being a lefty and doing the mental conversions has become exasperating...wait, no I'm used to that.....I'm waiting for @Jack Watson to MAKE A POINT. PLEASE!

  • Upvote 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

So,  I showed the Mickey Wright video above to an independent source (P.E. non golfer) at work and asked him to tell me what he saw in terms of weight shift in the motion.

He said in his opinion there is a small weight shift.

Also I texted my pro and he said the pressure shift in the feet is large but the weight shift is small if any.

It appears three sources now confirm my earlier post describing weight shift at 95 percent to right leg as a technically incorrect assertion.

That is all for today...

Link to comment
Share on other sites


On 5/20/2017 at 10:34 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

There's all kinds of ways to hit a golf ball.

So......Is this your point @Jack Watson?

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

So......Is this your point @Jack Watson?

Well,  the powers that be don't accept the words of the golfer describing what they were trying to do or anything concerning feel as support or evidence for anything.  Also,  there's no scientific data available like boditrak on these types of swings because this technology was not available then...I am working on some reasons to support the old school motion...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


21 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  the powers that be don't accept the words of the golfer describing what they were trying to do or anything concerning feel as support or evidence for anything.  Also,  there's no scientific data available like boditrak on these types of swings because this technology was not available then...I am working on some reasons to support the old school motion...

It's not the powers that be. It's anybody who understands the golf swing and its mechanics. "feel" is never scientific nor does it provide any evidence. You don't agree with that? "Reasons to support the old school motion". Iacas has repeatedly stated he supports your appreciation for what you call 'Old School". He stated he's fine and even teaches the lifting of the lead heal if it allows one to gain better rotation. You seem to be trying to defend something and I'm not sure what it is you're defending. The rear leg does not retain its flex completely on the bs. You can have the 'feeling' all you want that it does. But it doesn't. Just like 'feeling' you keep your trail arm straight to help widen your swing. It's impossible to keep straight. Feeling it as being straight? Fine.

I don't think you seem to understand that just because these 'old school' golfers SAID what they felt or did during a swing doesn't  represent WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID. Mickey Wright can say she tried to get all her weight or 95% of it on her trail leg in the backswing. Fine. But she didn't. You can't possibly believe that if we put these "old school" golfers on pressure plates their readings would be vastly different than today's 'modern players'? 

No one has said the old school motion was wrong. What has been stated, correctly by Iacas, is that what you're describing as what is being done by that swing is incorrect. Hell, you even just admitted your statement on weight shift was inaccurate. 

So....what, again, is your point?

  • Upvote 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

39 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  the powers that be don't accept the words of the golfer describing what they were trying to do or anything concerning feel as support or evidence for anything.  

Well, what if a feel for you produces a result for another that doesn't work at all?

That is the problem of using feels in trying to describe what is going on. I am not you, you are not me, and we are not Mickey Wright. 

Each golfer needs to find their own feel for what might produce the same movement. 

  • Upvote 3

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  the powers that be don't accept the words of the golfer describing what they were trying to do or anything concerning feel as support or evidence for anything.

Because feel ain't real. It changes from person to person. Two people can do the same motion and describe it in different ways, which is why it is more important to discuss what is actually happening rather than what a player feels is happening.

My swing feels like it's all arms. Why? Because my legs and hips naturally extend and rotate without any conscious thought. Yet my swing is anything but "armsy" despite how it feels to me.

This is why a player's feel isn't good evidence here, because it is subjective, and has nothing to do with "the powers that be" here or whatever you're trying to insinuate with that statement.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Also,  there's no scientific data available like boditrak on these types of swings because this technology was not available then...I am working on some reasons to support the old school motion...

And this brings us back to the question... why? Where's the scientific data that says the old school motion produces better ballstriking? As far as I'm concerned, the old school and the modern swings as you label them are more similar than they are dissimilar.

If you want to swing by letting your front knee kick in a bit, that's fine. Again, nobody said there's anything wrong with that. If your argument is that this motion is superior to not kicking in your front knee, you have yet to prove that.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
12 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So,  I showed the Mickey Wright video above to an independent source (P.E. non golfer) at work and asked him to tell me what he saw in terms of weight shift in the motion.

He said in his opinion there is a small weight shift.

Also I texted my pro and he said the pressure shift in the feet is large but the weight shift is small if any.

It appears three sources now confirm my earlier post describing weight shift at 95 percent to right leg as a technically incorrect assertion.

Of course it's incorrect. I told you that. I illustrated it a few times. I've spent hundreds of hours on force plates. I was one of the first to own a SwingCatalyst. :-P

What I told you is backed by that experience, and thus weighs quite a bit more than "in his opinion there is a small weight shift." If he had told you that in his opinion there was a huge weight shift it would matter just as much: not at all. His opinion isn't scientific data.

Goodness, look around here… I've done more research on weight, pressure, and forces in the golf swing than almost any other golf instructor in the world.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  the powers that be don't accept the words of the golfer describing what they were trying to do or anything concerning feel as support or evidence for anything.

I'm not "the powers that be," I'm just a reasonably intelligent guy who has studied this stuff, has a background in actual sciences, etc. Feels aren't accurate. They're not scientific. They're not "good data."

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Also, there's no scientific data available like boditrak on these types of swings because this technology was not available then...I am working on some reasons to support the old school motion.

Why are you working on reasons to support the "old school motion"? To what end? And… what @billchao says here in its entirety:

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

And this brings us back to the question... why? Where's the scientific data that says the old school motion produces better ballstriking? As far as I'm concerned, the old school and the modern swings as you label them are more similar than they are dissimilar.

If you want to swing by letting your front knee kick in a bit, that's fine. Again, nobody said there's anything wrong with that. If your argument is that this motion is superior to not kicking in your front knee, you have yet to prove that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

Little off topic here but Jack Nicklaus said as soon as he started transferring his weight he felt he immediately released the club head with his hands and wrists. Feel ain't real.

Screen Shot 2017-05-12 at 12.58.38 PM.pngScreen Shot 2017-05-12 at 12.58.07 PM.png

  • Upvote 1

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I cannot supply scientific data on the old fashioned knee action.  I have only anecdotal support for it.

In my own game focusing on pressure shift in the feet is not a feel that's effective.  Last time out I was not at my best and part of it was focusing on my legs for maybe ten holes probably due in part to this thread.  I was beat down hard by the golfing gods.  They even took away my putting also but threw in good chipping to further screw with me haha!

Sadly,  I can only admit I am not as athletic as those golfers with that hyperactive left knee.  It's my theory that this active knee motion contributed something to their action,  perhaps helping their sequencing or power or possibly protecting the spine,  but I can't put forth a good argument based on solid evidence.   The shots of Nicklaus above are fascinating.  It's hard to believe they did that with that unforgiving equipment.

Photos like the ones of Nicklaus and Wright are just amazing to me to look at.  How the heck were they able to be so dynamic looking and still crush a tiny headed persimmon driver with a tiny sweet spot/clubface?  It truly boggles my mind.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Moderator
7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It's my theory that this active knee motion contributed something to their action,  perhaps helping their sequencing or power or possibly protecting the spine,  but I can't put forth a good argument based on solid evidence.

I think an active lead knee (or both knees) certainly helps with sequencing. In order for the knee to move forward and around (and straighten) it helps for it to gain some flex and rotate internally on the backswing. Creates some "flow". I basically described what I mean by active knee movement in my previous post in this thread.

Like I said, doing the knee stuff in of itself might not be the answer, have to consider how the torso is working to facilitate the motion/pieces.

7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

The shots of Nicklaus above are fascinating.  It's hard to believe they did that with that unforgiving equipment.

While I love Jack's swing and think there is a lot we can learn from it, he was a special players and he would have been just as good with a swing where he kept the lead heel planted.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2487 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • Day 76 - Pretty sore today, so I opted for putting over my Stack session. Primary focus was on starting line, as my putting has been pretty poor this year. 
    • Been a bit of delay in updates but I needed to come back east as my mom's health has taken a serious turn for the worse. In a 3 day span we learned she had a tumor to she has stage 4 cancer and stopped eating and drinking for the most part. She has had a rough 3 months but certainly didn't think we'd be at the point of setting up hospice for her. My mom was never into any sports really other than following the Red Sox because my dad was a big fan. She always cared about what we were involved in including asking about how golf went.  I have kept up with my 5 minutes of daily practice and will go to the gym here in NH tomorrow morning. Despite the somber nature of this trip my family has commented more than a few times about my weight loss so it's important to me to keep it up. I know my mom always wanted us happy in whatever we did so I'll continue with my fitness journey keeping that in mind. 
    • Day 109- Putting drills on a putting green for 20 minutes. 
    • Day 252: did a stack session. Did some slow rehearsal swings during breaks. 
    • Day 82: 3/18/24 Tried a Stack session but could not certify my warmup. Finished with indoor chips and putting. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...