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War Eagle

Mike Austin

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21 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Crickets...

Well you got your wish (I think), eh @Ernest Jones? :-)

8 hours ago, David in FL said:

I think people are waiting for you to respond to @iacas's detailed response to your initial post...

@David in FL was referring to this one, @NuroPane:

 

Moving on…

4 hours ago, NuroPane said:

Lets keep in mind that what I am doing is debunking ignorant and dangerous remarks and statements by someone who claims to be the best golf digests young professional teacher @iacas. I personally find offensive that you are teaching anyone because @iacas you know nothing about the golf swing and you made stupid claims. I have proved it within a couple of posts on two simple things the address and takeaway.

Hmmm…

NicklausWoods.jpg

Seems those two knew a thing or two about playing some pretty decent golf. But hey, if you wanna hang your hat on that…

And I didn't "claim" to have been named to the Golf Digest list. I was named to it.

Their address positions weren't exactly like Mike Austin's, either.

Oh, and you ignored @mvmac's post too…

On 5/30/2017 at 0:40 AM, mvmac said:

Austin had a great swing but other than the "macro" moves I don't see many similarities to DJ.

- Austin had a slightly weak or neutral grip, DJ uses a strong one
- Austin raised his left heel on the backswing 
- DJ has a much more flexed lead wrist on the backswing and downswing
- Austin goes into right pelvic tilt and with more axis tilt on the downswing where DJ maintains left pelvic tilt longer
- DJ is more rotational while Austin had more "leg drive".

Read more  

There are several good points in that too.

5 hours ago, NuroPane said:

Address.png

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Let's overlap just the lines. I'll use Blue for Mike Austin, because that's how this thread is making me feel, and red for Dustin Johnson because it feels patriotic.

MAS01.png

Dustin's stance is clearly much wider. But whatever, it's just setup…

MAS02.png

Dustin's knees are working completely differently than MAS.

3 hours ago, NuroPane said:

top.png.5b847c26f7f4e720dad8a5661bb41584.png

Read more  

MAS03.png

Again, the knees are working quite differently. Look at the angle of the right lower leg.

3 hours ago, NuroPane said:

It is very difficult to compare as the sequence of the frames are different and you can see that DJ has started to release the club. If we had an image of MA that was a fraction of a second later it would be almost identical as you would see that MA also releases the club what many PGA teachers say is early. Which is against conventional belief that you have to hold onto the wrist set.

I don't think people would claim it's an "early release."

Also, you're seriously claiming that Dustin Johnson released nearly 40° more of this angle moving his left arm only another 3°

MAS05.jpg

Let's compare Mike Austin to Sergio Garcia, who is said to "hold the lag" more than almost anyone else.

MAS04.jpg

At the same arm angle, Mike Austin has "held the lag" 14° more than Sergio Garcia.

3 hours ago, NuroPane said:

DJ is also more over the ball and MA is behind the ball more, but the key is that the right shoulder lever is behind the right knee.

As I noted earlier, virtually EVERY PGA Tour player has the right shoulder behind the right knee here. This isn't an MAS-specific thing at all.

3 hours ago, NuroPane said:

DownSwing.png.f157af6b5a4b94c200d024c46af1badf.png

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Again, very different lower body action.

MAS06.png

3 hours ago, NuroPane said:

More of the same, the follow through. DJ's swing adhere's to MA's theories more than MA's actual swing. Please pay particular attention to the right forearm on both it is pointing at the sky. MA said it was like and underarm throwing action.

Followthru.png

Read more  

Drawing the lines is getting tedious. But again, just look at Dustin's left leg and the line someone (you, @NuroPane?) drew on it. Completely different.


Long story short…

  • I've refuted or responded to the nine points you made before. You did not respond to them at all.
  • @mvmac responded, and you didn't respond to what he wrote, either.
  • Your chosen model, Dustin Johnson swings significantly differently than Mike Austin.
  • The pieces of the swing that DJ and MA have in common… are also common factors of the majority of PGA Tour players.
  • Some of your claims - for example, the "hold the lag" one - fall apart upon the quickest of inspections.
  • You've been incredibly rude, and justly warned twice. Now you find yourself in a timeout.

But hey, what do I know…?

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7 hours ago, NuroPane said:

@mvmac I'm also calling you out, both of you got stuck into people who were searching and reaching out for assistance.

I stand by what I said. There are some similarities that not only DJ and Austin share but other great players. There are also some big differences, like I said:

- Austin raised his left heel on the backswing 
- DJ has a much more flexed lead wrist on the backswing and downswing
- Austin goes into right pelvic tilt and with more axis tilt on the downswing where DJ maintains left pelvic tilt longer
- DJ is more rotational while Austin had more "leg drive".

7 hours ago, NuroPane said:

Seriously, are you kidding! how the hell can your arms stay up in the air whilst your body is turning. You know that your arms are attached to your body and whatever your body does your arms will follow!

Just look at the transition. We're not talking about the entire downswing, just early transition. DJ is almost loading his left arm across his chest during that time. It's being done with the scapula movement, left scap elevation, right scap depression.

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:37 PM, MRugroden said:

Look at the past greats (Byron Nelson for one) and compare their swing with today's greats with the exception of Dustin Johnson.  They're all on Youtube.  Johnson's swing is the closest to Austin's and if you'll notice, Dustin is the longest and most accurate on tour.  I believe he's #1 as well.  Might there be something to this?

DJ is a freak of nature. He leg presses 450 pounds. His vertical jump-- in golf pants-- was tested as higher than most NBA players (allegedly). He has bear claws for hands. He's in the 99th percentile for height, and is easily one of the tallest players on tour.

 

I suspect that has just a little bit to do with his imposing length on the course.

 

If you're going to argue about swing models and distance, I'd be much more interested to see what model a relative pipsqueak like Justin Thomas is using to be 11th in driving distance @ 5'10, 145 pounds, than a monster like DJ at 6'4, 190 pounds. DJ should be long.

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1 hour ago, BaconNEggs said:

If you're going to argue about swing models and distance, I'd be much more interested to see what model a relative pipsqueak like Justin Thomas is using to be 11th in driving distance @ 5'10, 145 pounds, than a monster like DJ at 6'4, 190 pounds. DJ should be long.

Isn't Rory the current longest hitter with Dustin coming in 2nd?

image.thumb.png.79d5efc53b7a3b171848720e27ddce30.png

In fact, I think over a third of the longer hitters are in the 5'10"-ish height bin.

If Bruce Lee at 5'7" could have swung a golf club I'd bet he'd have been close to the top if he were not dead and would have been in his prime now. High kin-esthetic perception and a lot of fast twitch muscles are likely more important than pure height?

Edited by Lihu

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14 hours ago, Lihu said:

Isn't Rory the current longest hitter with Dustin coming in 2nd?

image.thumb.png.79d5efc53b7a3b171848720e27ddce30.png

In fact, I think over a third of the longer hitters are in the 5'10"-ish height bin.

If Bruce Lee at 5'7" could have swung a golf club I'd bet he'd have been close to the top if he were not dead and would have been in his prime now. High kin-esthetic perception and a lot of fast twitch muscles are likely more important than pure height?

 
 
I don't know much about some of the players on the top 10 driving list because I mostly follow the USLPGA, US Seniors and the Euro Tour. However, I did look at the swings on Youtube, my summary of their 'Freak-ness' is provided at the end but it is not a conclusive assessment as I only looked at each swing briefly if I was not already familiar with it. 
 
The Top 10 is a good pick statistically as they are all close to a driving average of 310 yards or a few yards further.
 
Notice that only 2 players under 6 foot are in the top 10 and both under the age of 30.
 
Height is an advantage, if it was not an advantage and not important then the statistics would show players of various heights in the top 10. My quick calculation is that the average height of the 8 tallest who are all above 6 foot is just under 6 foot 3 on average, which is about 4.5 inches on average than the shortest players, Rory and Brandon Hagy.
 
I would like to add, that my perception is that all of the 10 players have a pronounced knee driving forward on downswing. They are all relatively young, meaning they are not 35+, flexible, fit and I'm sure they all work out the right way. There is no secret in how they generate so much speed when you take all their attributed into account.
 
The players that I believe are not freaks generate their backswing torque by allowing their hips to turn on the backswing which gives them allot of space with limited restriction on the downswing to slot the club. If you are interested and want to get the same feeling of your right side (hip moving back), that is relatively easy to do. When you next hit the range do some drills, purposefully lift your left heal off the ground on the backswing to get the feeling of your right side moving away, as shown in the attached Sam Snead images.
 
Here's my list.

Rory - 28 - 5 foot 10 - Freak he creates huge torque with limited hip turn

Dustin - 33 - 6 foot 4 - Not a freak - posts on right side leg - unrestricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Brandon Hagy - 26 - 5 foot 11 - not a freak - posts on right side leg - unrestricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Ryan Brehm - 31 - 6 foot 4 - somewhat of a freak - posts on right side leg - somewhat restricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Luke List - 32 - 6 foot 2 - Not a freak - posts on right side leg - unrestricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Andrew Loupe - 28 - 6 foot 1 - Somewhat of a Freak - posts on right side leg with knee bend (I have no idea how he does it) - unrestricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Brooks Koepka - 27 - 6 foot 0 - Absolute Freak - he creates huge torque with no posting on the right leg and limited hip turn on the backswing
 
Tony Finau - 27 - 6 foot 4 - Somewhat of a Freak - Some restriction in the backswing - lots of torque
 
Trey Mullinex - 25 - 6 foot 4 - Not a freak - posts on right side leg - unrestricted hip turn on the backswing
 
Kevin Tway - 29 - 6 foot 3 - Somewhat of a freak - posts on right side leg - somewhat of a restricted hip turn on the backswing
 

ChambleeSneadTransition.jpg

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@BaconNEggs and @NuroPane,  I found this article and plot with associated data.

Interesting that distances as a percentage of height do not exactly correlate. For instance, the shortest two people on the list are 66" in height and have an average drive between 272 and 284, and the tallest is 77" and drives 290. The ratio of heights is around 15% and the ratio of driving distances is around 4%. Even at 76" the ratio of driving distances is only 6%.

From this plot, it looks like there's a sweet spot right about 70" then tapers down at 72" then up again at 73" then down again as the players get taller.

So, my guess is athleticism and a nominal height (like 5'10"-ish) is more or less the sweet spot due to sheer numbers (like average male height). It's rarer to find someone with 80" height who is as athletic and wants to play golf versus some other sport like basketball or football. That might also be the reason for a "weak" spot in the plot for players between 6' and 6'3"?

I think this might be one reason the PGA data is skewed towards 5'10" to 5'11" being pretty much a nominal height for distance?

Edited by Lihu

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21 minutes ago, Lihu said:

@BaconNEggs and @NuroPane,  I found this article and plot with associated data.

@Lihu, the topic is not player height vs. driving distance, and @NuroPane is once again dodging the points put forth in response to his points.

If you want to continue to discuss player height, maybe this thread will suffice:

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On 5/23/2017 at 11:07 AM, War Eagle said:

Can someone please explain to me the cult-like following that Mike Austin has ? Sure, the guy was a big hitter (some of that probably exaggerated) but never won a PGA or other professional tournament that I can find ? And maybe he did hit a 515-yard drive downwind on rock hard fairways. 

What is the attraction with his mechanics ? 

That's because in Mike's day there was very little money on tour....he made way!!!! more money staying home  hustling mobsters and suckers then the tour players were making....no need to travel....they all came to him !!!  If you take a look at Mikes educational degrees and especially the kinesthetics and engineering degrees he holds.. then you can understand why he was ahead of his time in the 50's and why he still is ahead of His time today.  The golf teaching industry is just beginning to catch up to what Mike has been teaching for decades.   When Hogan wanted to come back from his accident....he took lessons from Mike in L.A.    hope this answers you questions...

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On 5/29/2017 at 5:44 PM, MRugroden said:

Since you are a "pro" here's one way where Johnson and Austin are similar.  Both straighten the right leg in the backswing and the hips slide to the right providing a post to swing the left hip around like on a gate.  The left heel comes up on Austin, but with Johnson's flexibility it appears the left foot stays flat with the left knee pointed behind the ball as with Austin.  Austin bows the left wrist in the take away and then there's Dustin.  

Austin initiates the forward swing with the left leg.  As the left leg leads, the hips slide toward the front to the straight left leg.  The right hip starts to swing around the straight left leg like around a post.  The arms can't help but be on plane and sling the club through the ball.  Follow thru end on the left side in balance so the the shaft of the club about level with ears behind the head. 

Modern instruction usually says restrict the hips against the lower back during the turn.  Don't slide the hips, don't straighten the legs. Get in this and that position.  

BTW, I took lessons from Haney and was told there was no other way to  play golf other than the modern method. I almost quit golf until I found Austin.  The pain was too bad.

 

Now that I've backed it up why don't you back up your statements in post #2.  Pretty easy to toss something like that out there and then expect everyone to accept it because you are an administrator.  Why is Hogan's method better?  Why does his swing not reflect his teachings?  Have you examined Austin's swing and all of his teachings before you declared them worthless?  If you want to have a discussion then let's put it all out there.  For you to declare Austin's  a scam show us where what he teaches doesn't work.  

 

 

  Let's see if Dustin will average 305yds at 75 yrs old like Mike and then the comparison might convince me that Mike was only.....some what correct....LOL.....Mike Austin was never shacking His head as to what happened on a bad golf shot...he absolutely understood what a ball did... what it did... when it did it.....I'm amazed at today's so called top players when they look like a deer in the headlights .....totally confused about the situation they themselves caused and created...then play the victim ...like it's always something or someone else that caused their demise...Mike always was very careful to explain "just because you know it...doesn't mean you can do it."  but....Mike could and did !!!!

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On 5/29/2017 at 7:10 PM, iacas said:

There's no need to put "pro" in quotes. I am. I'm one of Golf Digest's "Best Young Teachers" for 2016-17. I've trained a few hundred instructors. I've written a book and software used by several of the top 10 players in the world or their instructors. The list goes on. I'm a pro. One of the best.

So does almost every other PGA Tour player:

Extending the trail knee is hardly something unique to Mike Austin's swing.

Really? I don't see that at all.

Dustin.jpg

The video moves (the red lines move relative to the sign as you can see), so I drew the yellow line up from the same spot on his shoe in both frames. His hips, if anything, are further left at the top of his backswing than right, based on this video.

This one too.

DJ Driver.jpg

Graeme McDowell and many other players bow the left wrist in the backswing.

This is true of virtually every good player.

DJ's action is no different, here, than virtually everyone on the PGA Tour. Or me. Or Rory.

Rory.jpg

Note… left leg is still bent a bit on the right there…

Like this, on the right?

Rory D.jpg

Oh, whoops, that's Rory again. Dustin's follow through is below his shoulders.

The rest, well, that's basically a description of anyone good's downswing. I'm still waiting for "The Secret Mike Austin Sauce."

Eh. Not really. And I've never taught that. And PGA Tour players never really have swung like that. They've all turned their hips, extended their trail leg, slid their hips forward, etc.

That's what I've seen when I've studied and viewed thousands of swings on YouTube, as you asked me (and others) to do earlier.

Haney sucks. He doesn't represent ALL of "modern" instruction. Not even close.

This hardly qualifies as backing anything up.

Who said Hogan's method is better? I haven't.

You first. You said Dustin Johnson swung uniquely. You said he did things I have shown here he doesn't do.

I'm pretty comfortable with what I teach, and I've got thousands of posts explaining it here. It's been vetted by people who know a good bit more about the golf swing than you do, from biomechanics guys to golfers to physicists and the like. I'm pretty well on record, and I've shared millions of words on the golf swing, for free.

So no, I don't feel like re-typing a bunch of it here, for the benefit of one, when you can just go look around this site and elsewhere.

Here's a good place to start:

Enjoy.

  I'm convinced that there is a reason handicaps and scoring averages have changed.... very little.......... for decades. I must respectively submit that it is the way that the so called perfect PGA method has hijacked the game of Golf and egotistically refused to take responsibility for their part in it.  The history of Golf Champions have varied their methods as to their style and would not even been able to make contact with the golf ball if they had been confined to positions and comparisons to another player.  When video came into practice it sent the game of golf back to the stone age. I must respectively say that it's becoming abundantly clear to the golfing public ...that....there is no incentive for a PGA instructor to teach anyone how to play golf.....because...that idea would not be financially rewarding to the instructor.....this complicated endlessly critical examination of every possible tangent of a circle....reduced to a stagnant sterile position... frozen in time... as it is being dynamically performed in a fluid motion.....is not only silly and unrepeatable....but also...killing golf.....tell a kid to take his thumbs and make an circle around him or her self on balance and you'll be amazed how little a golfer needs to know about a professional golf  swing...

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1 minute ago, golfprotl1 said:

I'm convinced that there is a reason handicaps and scoring averages have changed.... very little.......... for decades.

Misconception. They’ve dropped quite a bit.

Gotta hand it to you Mike Austin nuts though. You stick to your playbook.

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1 minute ago, golfprotl1 said:

Where ?

There’s a topic here if you look for it.

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/86700-golfers-are-getting-better-handicaps-are-dropping/

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

There’s a topic here if you look for it.

Golf Digest 2018, itself has admitted that the average 16.5 has only gone down to 14.5 in the last 27 yrs if you think that's a lot then I must respectfully say I'm not really convinced about who is struggling with misconception.here.

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Ha. Okay dude.

14 minutes ago, golfprotl1 said:

I must respectively say that it's becoming abundantly clear to the golfing public ...that....there is no incentive for a PGA instructor to teach anyone how to play golf.....because...that idea would not be financially rewarding to the instructor.

Complete BS.

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3 minutes ago, golfprotl1 said:

Golf Digest 2018, itself has admitted that the average 16.5 has only gone down to 14.5 in the last 27 yrs if you think that's a lot then I must respectfully say I'm not really convinced about who is struggling with misconception.here.

I'd say we should ask any player whose handicap has gone down by two strokes whether that's significant or not.

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57 minutes ago, iacas said:

Complete BS.

Then give me some different numbers......are you saying you know more than the stats gathered by golf Digest ? See this is what happens..someone can't refute facts so they just declare B.S.....because the facts totally eliminate their credentials......again I'm wondering who is suffering with B.S. here.

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