Hank Haney questions Bernhard Langer's Putting

[MRR]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Long putters help those with bad backs and stuff, as well, even when used "non-anchoring."

Never understood this argument.  Is there really a large group of people who have the the athleticism to make full swings but cannot physically handle putting?  Even if there is, cannot a slightly longer putter that allows a more upright stance be the solution instead of a putter that goes up to the chest?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

I guess it's a different stroke, but my point was the USGA doesn't care how tall a player is with regards to driver length. There is a limit, period. Right? It just appears that evidence has shown BL anchored (or anchors) his put and nothing is really being done about it. Not sure how this will be remedied. 

Yeah, the limit is 48", which is quite long.

Limit putters to 48" and a ton of people could anchor and belly-putt. Like I said, my kid could belly-putt with a 31" putter… and she's not fat or anything.

1 minute ago, MRR said:

Never understood this argument. Is there really a large group of people who have the the athleticism to make full swings but cannot physically handle putting?

Putting is not good for your back. Yes, there are a lot of people - older guys - who often find comfort in using a longer putter and standing more upright.

3 minutes ago, MRR said:

Even if there is, cannot a slightly longer putter that allows a more upright stance be the solution instead of a putter that goes up to the chest?

Belly putters were popular, too.

If you change from a restriction on anchoring to a restriction on the length, tons of people will anchor by belly-putting.

[MRR]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Putting is not good for your back. Yes, there are a lot of people - older guys - who often find comfort in using a longer putter and standing more upright.

I completely understand that fact, in a vacuum.  

What I don't get is that those people are fine taking full swings.  If they can take a full swing, I would think they would be fine putting.  Likewise, if "normal" putting is uncomfortable, then a typical golf swing should feel even worse.

[Vinsk]

8 minutes ago, MRR said:

I completely understand that fact, in a vacuum.  

What I don't get is that those people are fine taking full swings.  If they can take a full swing, I would think they would be fine putting.  Likewise, if "normal" putting is uncomfortable, then a typical golf swing should feel even worse.

Some people have compression injuries where standing can be painful but active movement, stretching gives relief. I know what you're saying, but it's true that for certain back issues a full swing is not painful, but ask same person to bend at the waist and stay still...the burning sets in.

[MRR]

Understood.  Thank you.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Some people have compression injuries where standing can be painful but active movement, stretching gives relief. I know what you're saying, but it's true that for certain back issues a full swing is not painful, but ask same person to bend at the waist and stay still...the burning sets in.

Yes, this.

[Golfingdad]

26 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Some people have compression injuries where standing can be painful but active movement, stretching gives relief. I know what you're saying, but it's true that for certain back issues a full swing is not painful, but ask same person to bend at the waist and stay still...the burning sets in.

Yeah, I have been one of those people (herniated disks at L3/L4 and L4/L5), so I agree.  Mine was to the point that I didn't golf at all though.  Now I putt with a normal length putter, always have.

The only thing I really wonder is how much less the person bends when using a long putter versus a normal putter.  I mean, if you're gonna be good at it, you still need to get your eyes over the ball, don't you?

But back to the original point, where the back issues become really noticeable is not while swinging or while putting on the course ... it's mostly while PRACTICING putting.  Cannot do that for very long before it starts to bother me.

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

The only thing I really wonder is how much less the person bends when using a long putter versus a normal putter. I mean, if you're gonna be good at it, you still need to get your eyes over the ball, don't you?

No. It helps, but it's not an absolute requirement. And even if it was a requirement, some people would be okay with being a slightly worse putter than "no putter" at all.

33 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But back to the original point, where the back issues become really noticeable is not while swinging or while putting on the course ... it's mostly while PRACTICING putting.  Cannot do that for very long before it starts to bother me.

Yeah… but some people start to feel it when bending over 15 seconds just to hit a single putt.

[Vinsk]

I guess the issue is really with BL and Scotty McCarron from what I've read. And mostly with BL. The video posted previously was pretty convincing to me. I guess if the USGA gets hold of some video or a playing partner sees it and says something we may see something happen. But it appears banning the 'long putter' has some work cut out before it can be done. I don't dislike BL, not really a fan either, but it just seems he's gotten away with something and being that he just topped Jack Nicklaus with 9 major senior wins...I figure it's worth pursuing.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

... or a playing partner sees it and says something we may see something happen..

Agree.  If the players are all fine with it then there isn't a lot of pressure on the Tour to push it further.  A "don't bite the hand that feeds you" type of thing.  If Fred Couples or Tom Lehman or one of the other big names on tour calls him out on it during a round or to the media, then they will have a bit of a kerfuffle on their hands.  Until then, it seems not enough people that need to care seem to care. (That we know of)

Edited July 13, 2017 by Golfingdad

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Agree.  If the players are all fine with it then there isn't a lot of pressure on the Tour to push it further.  A "don't bite the hand that feeds you" type of thing.  If Fred Couples or Tom Lehman or one of the other big names on tour calls him out on it during a round or to the media, then they will have a bit of a kerfuffle on their hands.  Until then, it seems not enough people that need to care seem to care. (That we know of)

I think we've heard that the players are NOT all happy with this. They're just unwilling to make a big public stink out of it. Partly because it'd make them look bad and like they're just complaining because they're being beaten by BL week in and week out.

[ZappyAd]

Could the rule not be something like no part of the club can be deliberately kept stationary during the stroke?  Then whether you anchor or not isn't specifically the issue.  A 'normal' stroke will always move the club but an anchored stroke will always try to keep it still somewhere.

So if you are anchoring there is a good chance that you will be filmed at some point during a round keeping a part of the club still.  And you couldn't justify a long putter technique that involves keeping something still because it breaks the rules, so players shouldn't even be doing anything near it.  And players with normal strokes don't even have to worry about it because their stroke will automatically be ok.

You could try to do an anchored stroke where you move the club around but that would defeat the purpose of that type of stroke in the first place.   It would also be easier to prove an infraction because the proof depends on visual information. 

[Golfingdad]

Just now, ZappyAd said:

Could the rule not be something like no part of the club can be deliberately kept stationary during the stroke?  Then whether you anchor or not isn't specifically the issue.  A 'normal' stroke will always move the club but an anchored stroke will always try to keep it still somewhere.

So if you are anchoring there is a good chance that you will be filmed at some point during a round keeping a part of the club still.  And you couldn't justify a long putter technique that involves keeping something still because it breaks the rules, so players shouldn't even be doing anything near it.  And players with normal strokes don't even have to worry about it because their stroke will automatically be ok.

You could try to do an anchored stroke where you move the club around but that would defeat the purpose of that type of stroke in the first place.   It would also be easier to prove an infraction because the proof depends on visual information. 

Honestly, the rule is fine because it specifically disallows what we all think we're seeing from Langer and McCarron.  But if they continue to defiantly do what they're doing and we continue to think it's cheating then they have to do something.

If they want to address it will a rule, I'd like to hear some feedback on my idea earlier in the thread ...

Why not add to the current no anchoring rule with a rule that requires the hands be together when both on the club?

[Vinsk]

11 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Honestly, the rule is fine because it specifically disallows what we all think we're seeing from Langer and McCarron.  But if they continue to defiantly do what they're doing and we continue to think it's cheating then they have to do something.

If they want to address it will a rule, I'd like to hear some feedback on my idea earlier in the thread ...

Why not add to the current no anchoring rule with a rule that requires the hands be together when both on the club?

Agree. But the hands together? I  putted for awhile  with my hands about 5" apart but otherwise took a regular stroke. I think the first part of your comment here is pretty much where it's at for now and maybe the pressure/concern will augment to where something is finally done about it.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Vinsk

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Why not add to the current no anchoring rule with a rule that requires the hands be together when both on the club?

Because the USGA/R&A didn't want to disallow claw grips or split-hand grips or anything like that. They even didn't want to disallow Matt Kuchar's arm-lock style. They wanted the hands to swing, and the arms to swing… anchoring doesn't allow that. Neither does BL's method, but… whatever.

To the other post from @ZappyAd, you can't legislate on "movement." On short putts the butt end of my club will not "move" much. Or to look at it the other way, on BL's putting stroke, the shaft is rotating around the axis point, so it's still "moving." It's not "still."

[Phil McGleno]

Langer is a cheater and the guys on the Champs Tour are too polite to call him on it publicly.-Too bad that the gentlemans game actually says you SHOULD call him on it and that he should be a gentleman and leave no doubt that he is following the rules himself.

He is definitely in breach IMO.

[Golfingdad]

56 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Agree. But the hands together? I  putted for awhile  with my hands about 5" apart but otherwise took a regular stroke. I think the first part of your comment here is pretty much where it's at for now and maybe the pressure/concern will augment to where something is finally done about it.

I hear ya.

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because the USGA/R&A didn't want to disallow claw grips or split-hand grips or anything like that. They even didn't want to disallow Matt Kuchar's arm-lock style. They wanted the hands to swing, and the arms to swing… anchoring doesn't allow that. Neither does BL's method, but… whatever.

Gotcha as well.  (I stipulate that an amended rule is not necessary, but just for fun) ...

Something along the lines of only allowing one grip on the club and said grip only being allowed to be x" long?  I don't know the number, but as long as it's under about 24" then somebody like Langer would have to be OK with gripping the bare shaft with one of his hands.

(I'm also willing to acknowledge that my rabbit hole is probably too deep now.)  

 

[rehmwa]

I'm not totally convince on Langer one way or the other.  Loose shirt, etc and I'm not scrutinizing too hard either way.

But McCarron - I was watching the tourney yesterday and it looks like the hand is touching, the forearm is FIRMLY pressed to his side/chest,.... just a lot of very firm contact from the elbow to the hand.  That's what it looks like.