Ernest Jones video

[Jack Watson]

38 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I totally disagree. 

I would bet the majority of high handicap golfers are focused on the club head more than the body. They want to hit the ball with the golf club. They don't think, "If I make this feel then this will happen." So, really they should be better golfers than they are. 

Well,  maybe,  but maybe what you said about them wanting to hit the ball with the golf club is more true.  A swinging motion and a hitting action are not one and the same thing at all.  A swing is a free motion.  A hit at the ball is a leveraging action like one would use with a crowbar.

Also thinking "If I make this feel this will happen" may or may not be true for any given person.  Feel is personal.  

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

A swinging motion and a hitting action are not one and the same thing at all.  A swing is a free motion.  A hit at the ball is a leveraging action like one would use with a crowbar.

Also thinking "If I make this feel this will happen" may or may not be true for any given person.  Feel is personal.  

I disagree a swing is defined as a free motion. Is it a free motion when my golf swing right now is thinking and doing the following,  

1. Take the backswing very slowly
2. Turn as much as I can through the ball

That doesn't sound like a free motion. It sounds like I am thinking of what I need to do to hit good shots. The very fact I think about how I want to swing constrains it, and takes the adjective "free" out of it. 

You are taking "If I make this feel this will happen" as some sort of generalization for all. What it means is that if I make a motion with the feel I want it will produce a known result because I have worked on it for my swing. Yes you are correct, feels are different for each person. Which makes it more critical that golfers develop their own feels for the motions they want to achieve. 

[Phil McGleno]

I am gone for awhile-And come back to this?

@Jack Watson I agree the fork thing is stupid.-Using a fork is nothing like playing golf.

What are you even trying to say here?-You are a guy who does not break 80 often. You do not teach.-What do you know about teaching golf? Serious question-Not trying to be mean. Actually asking.

I teach using a bunch of methods.-Limiting yourself makes no sense to me.

[Jack Watson]

10 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

I am gone for awhile-And come back to this?

@Jack Watson I agree the fork thing is stupid.-Using a fork is nothing like playing golf.

What are you even trying to say here?-You are a guy who does not break 80 often. You do not teach.-What do you know about teaching golf? Serious question-Not trying to be mean. Actually asking.

I teach using a bunch of methods.-Limiting yourself makes no sense to me.

I'm echoing the ideas that have worked for me and a few of my friends.  I've had success helping high handicaps gain the ability to shoot down to low 80s.  

I don't shoot in the seventies regularly.  At one time that was a goal,  but for me I found it's just too much maintenance to get close to that.  I don't practice and don't play that often so  it's tough to break 80 every time.  Practice is just too boring for me anymore.

The fork idea is an analogy and I really like it.  We want to get to where the club is used in that way.  Truly it's an art to swing well.  

[Jack Watson]

Simple video that shows a swinging motion vs leverage.

 

[Jack Watson]

Here's another video I think is reflecting Ernest Jones.  No need to watch the whole thing,  the 'meat' is from 8:50 onward...Enjoy...

One more showing people having fun...That's what it's all about.

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

Another source.  Same concept.

 

[Phil McGleno]

On 6/10/2017 at 0:06 PM, Jack Watson said:

Simple video that shows a swinging motion vs leverage.

If that is what you mean by a lever approach then almost nobody good teaches that at all.-I think I heard here from @iacas that 'lag happens' and that the proper sequencing released the club so it can be inline at impact automatically.

No good players are trying to hold off the clubhead and then levering it into the golf ball in a timing method.-NONE.

If that is what you think people are doing or teaching then I would have a beef with them too-But I have not seen anyone doing this. Nobody even half decent that I can think of.

On 6/10/2017 at 0:27 PM, Jack Watson said:

Here's another video I think is reflecting Ernest Jones.  No need to watch the whole thing,  the 'meat' is from 8:50 onward...Enjoy...

This guy says if you have an issue mechanically you have to fix that first.-9:48 or so. If you have a major mechanical issue we have to work on that.

10:15-He "strikes inaccurately again."-Nice demo kid.

[Jack Watson]

12 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

 

If that is what you think people are doing or teaching then I would have a beef with them too-But I have not seen anyone doing this. Nobody even half decent that I can think of.

Right,  this thread is there to talk about swinging the clubhead which all good players do.  The people who might benefit are the high cap types who do not know what the swinging motion is.

12 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

This guy says if you have an issue mechanically you have to fix that first.-9:48 or so. If you have a major mechanical issue we have to work on that.

10:15-He "strikes inaccurately again."-Nice demo kid.

He says that the mechanics are the icing and the swinging motion is the cake or as he put it the foundation of it all.  His words, and as part of the thread they are up for discussion.  I personally like that POV.

 

[Vinsk]

On 6/12/2017 at 9:04 AM, Jack Watson said:

He says that the mechanics are the icing and the swinging motion is the cake

That really makes no sense. Any human, or primate actually, can swing a club. You seem to be trying to simplify something that is far from simple yet in the process actually complicating it further.

As has been proven countless number of times and as Iacas and others have painstakingly researched, there are 5 factors (keys) that all good ball strikers perform. HOW they feel those keys, how they perform those keys are varied but nonetheless performed with excellent consistency. Discovering what 'feels' are necessary to perform those 5 keys and to ingrain those feels are what we are all here for.

i appreciate your passion for golf. But trying to think a good golf swing comes down to a Bagger Vance tip is nice but nothing more than unrealistic.

[Jack Watson]

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

That really makes no sense. Any human, or primate actually, can swing a club. You seem to be trying to simplify something that is far from simple yet in the process actually complicating it further.

Well,  IMO there's more to swinging a club than just grabbing the thing and trying to whack a ball.  The true swinging motion is a specific type of club motion.  In fact,  imo,  what many people refer to as a swing is in fact something else.  Also these ideas I like to talk about are not my inventions.  They originated with golfers and teachers many years ago who are now immortalized in the hall of fame.  

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

As has been proven countless number of times and as Iacas and others have painstakingly researched, there are 5 factors (keys) that all good ball strikers perform. HOW they feel those keys, how they perform those keys are varied but nonetheless performed with excellent consistency. Discovering what 'feels' are necessary to perform those 5 keys and to ingrain those feels are what we are all here for.

I have no quarrel with this.  For me personally the feel of swinging the clubhead helps my keys. 

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

 

i appreciate your passion for golf. But trying to think a good golf swing comes down to a Bagger Vance tip is nice but nothing more than unrealistic.

I agree.  Understanding what a swinging motion is is not a tip.  

Edited June 14, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Vinsk]

4 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  IMO there's more to swinging a club than just grabbing the thing and trying to whack a ball.  The true swinging motion is a specific type of club motion

In the game of golf, yes. That is why the mechanics are the cake. A billy club, a stick, a sword, a baseball bat and a golf club can all be 'swung.' In golf, we are 'swinging' a specific club with a specific purpose at a stationary object on the ground. And as erect, two legged, two armed creatures there are some key mechanics that have been proven to allow us to obtain that specific purpose in the best way.

 

[Jack Watson]

6 hours ago, Vinsk said:

In the game of golf, yes. That is why the mechanics are the cake. A billy club, a stick, a sword, a baseball bat and a golf club can all be 'swung

Well,  many hold that viewpoint and ultimately it's a chicken or egg thing.

My argument would be we can work on mechanics without a club in hand,  however we need to use a club to hit the ball with so that's why I think the motion of the club is the cake.

(Hope that made some form of sense to someone...)

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Well,  many hold that viewpoint and ultimately it's a chicken or egg thing.

My argument would be we can work on mechanics without a club in hand,  however we need to use a club to hit the ball with so that's why I think the motion of the club is the cake.

(Hope that made some form of sense to someone...)

Well, some mechanics. You can't practice proper path without a club. Not effectively. And like Iacas said, the club is inert. It does nothing without us moving it. HOW we move it is what's important in golf...the mechanics are what differentiate the golf swing from the aforementioned objects. 

Example...when I was in Africa ( Peace Corp) I took a wedge with me and some golf balls. I handed my club (yes I'm left handed but doesn't matter in this situation) to local villager who had no idea what golf was. Never even heard of the sport. I simply said 'hit that ball by swinging this club.' He took the club in one hand and swung it like a machete and actually hit the ball. 'Try it using both arms' I said. He made swing at it, no hip turn but did turn his shoulders. He whiffed it twice then hit the ball and it sputtered across the ground about 30 yards.

Point: Anyone can swing a golf club. Virtually any human will have an idea of 'swing this' and 'hit that ball' be it a golf ball on the ground, a base ball tossed to them, or a stationary ball on a tee. But the MECHANICS of a proper golf swing are far from natural or innate. It's the MECHANICS that are the substance of the activity at hand.

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Well, some mechanics. You can't practice proper path without a club. Not effectively. And like Iacas said, the club is inert. It does nothing without us moving it. HOW we move it is what's important in golf...the mechanics are what differentiate the golf swing from the aforementioned objects. 

Example...when I was in Africa ( Peace Corp) I took a wedge with me and some golf balls. I handed my club (yes I'm left handed but doesn't matter in this situation) to local villager who had no idea what golf was. Never even heard of the sport. I simply said 'hit that ball by swinging this club.' He took the club in one hand and swung it like a machete and actually hit the ball. 'Try it using both arms' I said. He made swing at it, no hip turn but did turn his shoulders. He whiffed it twice then hit the ball and it sputtered across the ground about 30 yards.

Point: Anyone can swing a golf club. Virtually any human will have an idea of 'swing this' and 'hit that ball' be it a golf ball on the ground, a base ball tossed to them, or a stationary ball on a tee. But the MECHANICS of a proper golf swing are far from natural or innate. It's the MECHANICS that are the substance of the activity at hand.

Suddenly that scene in Airplane comes to mind but with golf.

I agree with all your points. I also think videos like this are part of the 'magic fix' culture in golf instruction.

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Suddenly that scene in Airplane comes to mind but with golf

LOL! Great call!

[iacas]

6 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I also think videos like this are part of the 'magic fix' culture in golf instruction.

Yup.

[Ernest Jones]

Kinda disappointed that none of these videos are of me.