Groove Sharpener

[TropicalSandTrap]

15 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

. The topic is groove sharpener and whether it renders your clubs illegal or is ineffective is very much on topic as I see it.

Go buy one and get to the cheatin already.

No, the topic is groove sharpeners and which ones are best. I started the thread and that is what I asked. 

Then some people hopped in and noted that there is a very slim chance that if you aggressively sharpen your grooves you could make your club not conform so you have to go buy new wedges every year.  

 

anyway, there Is nothing wrong with keeping the same wedge for a long time and having the grooves sharpened to what they were when you bought the club. the rule is posted just above.  And the topic for this thread is how is the best way to out doing it, not accusing people who get their clubs refreshed from time to time of being cheaters. 

Back at my old club in the northeast there was a custom golf shop down the road and people would regularly get their grooves sharpened. Never once heard them called cheaters. I think you are missing the point of groove sharpening. to restore the club to what it was when new, not to make them different. 

But go ahead and think that anybody who doesn't buy new clubs every year either hasn't to pay with dull grooves or they are a cheater if that makes you feel better. 

 

 

Now if anyone has had advice on how to best use a groove sharpener to make sure that you aren't being too aggressive, that would be on topic. Or advice as to the best tools available, that would be on topic. But it's not cheating if you give you right clubs some tender loving care once in a while. 

[Phil McGleno]

11 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

No, the topic is groove sharpeners and which ones are best. I started the thread and that is what I asked. 

Then some people hopped in and noted that there is a very slim chance that if you aggressively sharpen your grooves you could make your club not conform so you have to go buy new wedges every year. 

anyway, there Is nothing wrong with keeping the same wedge for a long time and having the grooves sharpened to what they were when you bought the club. the rule is posted just above.  And the topic for this thread is how is the best way to out doing it, not accusing people who get their clubs refreshed from time to time of being cheaters. 

Back at my old club in the northeast there was a custom golf shop down the road and people would regularly get their grooves sharpened. Never once heard them called cheaters. I think you are missing the point of groove sharpening. to restore the club to what it was when new, not to make them different. 

But go ahead and think that anybody who doesn't buy new clubs every year either hasn't to pay with dull grooves or they are a cheater if that makes you feel better.

Now if anyone has had advice on how to best use a groove sharpener to make sure that you aren't being too aggressive, that would be on topic. Or advice as to the best tools available, that would be on topic. But it's not cheating if you give you right clubs some tender loving care once in a while. 

Here are the thing you are not getting.

• If you are applying tender loving care that is just using a brush.
• Anything more aggressive than using a brush is removing material and thus making your wedges illegal.
• Nobody here is commenting on which is best because groove sharpeners are fringe things. There is a lot of money in golf and yet a lot of thrifty people-And if groove sharpeners were a valid thing more people would have them and you could find a bunch of them all over. Heck you can find more sites selling alignment stick covers than groove sharpeners.

They are bogus. Use a brush or cheat-That is your choice. I do not care which choice you make-But stop kidding yourself.

Very slim chance-Ha.

Nobody has any information for you because they are a waste of money-They either do not do more than a brush or they render your clubs non-conforming.

You cannot restore the club to what it was when it was new if you remove material.-If you are NOT removing material you may as well just use a brush.

The only other thing is if you think that you are pushing metal around and somehow reshaping the grooves to their original specs.-If you think that then that is the only way you could think a groove sharpener works.

They do not work that way though.

[jamo]

I've been trying to visualize what a groove sharpener could possibly even do, so I grabbed an old lob wedge that I used for a few years. All of the grooves near the top of the club are virtually unused (sketch on the left), but the ones near the sole are quite worn. But the way they're worn is that the edges have smoothed out, like the sketch second from the left. 

There's no way to correct for that with a sharpener tool. The material in the top corner has deformed, you're not going to be able mold it back into that previous shape. The only thing you could do is cut or deform the material in the bottom of the grooves, widening the entire groove (third picture from the left), which, yes, would likely make the grooves illegal, since they're probably already at the legal limit. And if you're not doing that, and thus keeping it legal, you're not actually doing anything to improve the grooves. 

What the grooves will never look like is the picture on the right. This is the only case a sharpener could actually correct legally. But grooves can't and won't cave in like that.

Alternatively, if you happen to have a welding torch and some spare steel handy, you could clad over the entire face of your wedges and cut new grooves yourself. 

No one's saying you need to buy new wedges twice a month, or that you should be shot for using wedges that may be nonconforming. We're just trying to set the facts straight. 

[Phil McGleno]

@jamo-Despite the irrefutable nature of your post-Stop derailing the topic with your off-topic nonsense. This guy wants to know how to spend his $20 dammit.

Go to groovesharpener.com. They have the best illeg, errr, groove sharpeners.-So says Google N E Way.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Phil McGleno

[TropicalSandTrap]

51 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Here are the thing you are not getting.

 

• Anything more aggressive than using a brush is removing material and thus making your wedges illegal.

BUt this is false. You are allowed to remove material so long as the club conforms to the rules. So you don't know the rule so you call people cheaters. 

If a club is worn down it can be sharpened up. That is 100% legal. Now there is a risk you could be too aggressive and it would go too deep. 

So instead of lying about the rules and falsely accusing people of cheating, try posting something constructive like ways to measure thegrooves so one doesn't go too far or something like that. 

 

 

Growing up a worked in a pro shop. The best player at the course used to have an old R90 edge with the brown shaft. He used to joke that it was older than us and he just would get the grooves sharpened every year. I should call him up the course and demand that all his club championship tags on the plaques be removed because somebody who doesn't know the rules thinks he is a cheater. 

[billchao]

If your wedges are 20 years old they probably aren't conforming wedges anyway so do whatever you want with them.

[Phil McGleno]

25 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

BUt this is false. You are allowed to remove material so long as the club conforms to the rules. So you don't know the rule so you call people cheaters. 

If a club is worn down it can be sharpened up. That is 100% legal. Now there is a risk you could be too aggressive and it would go too deep.

Wrong.-Removal of material (the steel or whatever) will make the club non-conforming.

Please draw what you think grooves look like and how you think a groove sharpener will keep them conforming.-Remember that normal wear and tear is allowed even if it renders the club non-conforming but if you do anything to change that it is no longer graced in as conforming.

Please show us these drawings.-And refer to the @jamo post above.

25 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

So instead of lying about the rules and falsely accusing people of cheating, try posting something constructive like ways to measure thegrooves so one doesn't go too far or something like that.

I am doing no such thing-And you owe me an apology, but I will not sit on my hands waiting for one.

25 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Growing up a worked in a pro shop.

I have worked in a pro shop for 50+ years buddy.

25 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Growing up a worked in a pro shop. The best player at the course used to have an old R90 edge with the brown shaft. He used to joke that it was older than us and he just would get the grooves sharpened every year. I should call him up the course and demand that all his club championship tags on the plaques be removed because somebody who doesn't know the rules thinks he is a cheater. 

Buddy slow your roll as the kids say.

Please show me how you can have worn out grooves and keep them within the rules of golf. Remember that if you have 20-year-old wedges any modification you make to them probably render them non-conforming anyway. But lets pretend you have a 2018 SM6 that you took back in a time machine 20 years and show us what the grooves look like and how you can remove some material while still keeping the club conforming.

Cuz you can not.

[TropicalSandTrap]

You misquoted the rules.  You don't know the rules. Stop making up rules. 

Removal of material does not in and of itself make a club nonconforming. You are wrong. I hope you don't misquote rules to people in the proshop where you work. 

You are obviously passionate about this because you have probably lost arguments on this issue in the past. Just admit you were wrong and stop hijacking what was intenddd to be a constructive thread. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by TropicalSandTrap

[Valleygolfer]

6 hours ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Vokey. The best out there and like I said, they last forever with a little tender loving care. 

Don't listen to these schmucks....I have a 56 degree SM3 Vokey wedge I will sell you for a killer bargain of $199....

[Jack Watson]

I don't know rules but if the original groove is a given dimension then sharpening the edges would have to make the grooves wider.  Seems like a cheat to me.   My first thought is the grooves will wear much faster if you fail to clean your wedge adequately.  Just a guess but sandpaper wears things down.  

Like anything imo clubs wear and need to be replaced from time to time.

It would be ridiculous to say you could just sharpen again and again and retain a given dimension.  Only a complete buffoon would suggest that.

Tropical whatever is wrong.  Nothing lasts forever.

All I know is that with new wedges and irons range ball cover gets collected by the club on relatively full shots.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jack Watson

[TropicalSandTrap]

The rule is that grooves cannot go past a certain size. So if you use a sharpener and don't exceed the size, then it's not a violation. So just don't overdo it and you should be fine. He rules do not say that you cannot remove material or that you cannot sharpen your grooves.  The people hijaking this thread obviously have a different idea of why a person would us a groove sharpener 

 

 Just be careful not to be too aggressive when making passes over the grooves. It is worth noting that a groove sharpener works by grinding out some of the metal on the club face. USGA rules on grooves state that grooves must be no more than 0.035 inches wide, 0.022 inches deep. If you play competitively, using a groove sharpener could make your clubs non-conforming and illegal for competition. So be careful not to overdo it. 

[Jack Watson]

5 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

The rule is that grooves cannot go past a certain size. So if you use a sharpener and don't exceed the size, then it's not a violation. So just don't overdo it and you should be fine. He rules do not say that you cannot remove material or that you cannot sharpen your grooves.  The people hijaking this thread obviously have a different idea of why a person would us a groove sharpener 

 

 Just be careful not to be too aggressive when making passes over the grooves. It is worth noting that a groove sharpener works by grinding out some of the metal on the club face. USGA rules on grooves state that grooves must be no more than 0.035 inches wide, 0.022 inches deep. If you play competitively, using a groove sharpener could make your clubs non-conforming and illegal for competition. So be careful not to overdo it. 

The groove sharpener used is a fixed dimension right?

Its only gonna do so much as far as width.  The groove sharpener company I just googled explicitly stated there's no guaranty of conformity without proper measurement so I will not use them.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Phil McGleno]

4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

You misquoted the rules.  You don't know the rules. Stop making up rules.

You are out of line-And wrong. And where did I even quote the Rules except earlier when I copied and pasted from the Rules of Golf Online?

You do not know how well I know the Rules or not.-Do not even go there. You cannot possibly know.

4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Removal of material does not in and of itself make a club nonconforming. You are wrong. I hope you don't misquote rules to people in the proshop where you work.

Answer my question: show us worn grooves and how removal of ANY material renders them conforming.

You are allowed to have wider grooves if they are the result of normal wear and tear. As soon as you do anything to them (beyond rebuilding the face entirely to very tight specs) you are rendering your clubs non-conforming.

If you disagree-Obviously you do-Please show us how. Use pictures like @jamo. I notice you did not respond to him or his picture.

4 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

You are obviously passionate about this because you have probably lost arguments on this issue in the past. Just admit you were wrong and stop hijacking what was intenddd to be a constructive thread. 

Buddy cool it.-No hijacking here.

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

The rule is that grooves cannot go past a certain size.

The rule also talks about corner radii and angles of the groove.

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

So if you use a sharpener and don't exceed the size, then it's not a violation. So just don't overdo it and you should be fine.

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?-Draw it. The grooves get wider through use and the corners wear down. Look at what @jamo posted.

They are allowed to get wider if it is through use. But as soon as you do anything it is not just through use.

So if you can not remove material you should just use a brush.

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Just be careful not to be too aggressive when making passes over the grooves.

Right.-You may as well use a brush.

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

It is worth noting that a groove sharpener works by grinding out some of the metal on the club face.

Which affects the corners and the width of the grooves.

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Just be careful not to be too aggressive when making passes over the grooves. It is worth noting that a groove sharpener works by grinding out some of the metal on the club face. USGA rules on grooves state that grooves must be no more than 0.035 inches wide, 0.022 inches deep. If you play competitively, using a groove sharpener could make your clubs non-conforming and illegal for competition. So be careful not to overdo it. 

They also have rules on corner radii.

Respond to @jamo's post.

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The groove sharpener used is a fixed dimension right?

Its only gonna do so much as far as width.  The groove sharpener company I just googled explicitly stated there's no guaranty of conformity without proper measurement so I will not use them.

Right-You will not find a groove sharpener that conforms to the rules because the rules say nothing about groove sharpening.

 

1 hour ago, jamo said:

I've been trying to visualize what a groove sharpener could possibly even do, so I grabbed an old lob wedge that I used for a few years. All of the grooves near the top of the club are virtually unused (sketch on the left), but the ones near the sole are quite worn. But the way they're worn is that the edges have smoothed out, like the sketch second from the left. 

There's no way to correct for that with a sharpener tool. The material in the top corner has deformed, you're not going to be able mold it back into that previous shape. The only thing you could do is cut or deform the material in the bottom of the grooves, widening the entire groove (third picture from the left), which, yes, would likely make the grooves illegal, since they're probably already at the legal limit. And if you're not doing that, and thus keeping it legal, you're not actually doing anything to improve the grooves. 

What the grooves will never look like is the picture on the right. This is the only case a sharpener could actually correct legally. But grooves can't and won't cave in like that.

Alternatively, if you happen to have a welding torch and some spare steel handy, you could clad over the entire face of your wedges and cut new grooves yourself. 

No one's saying you need to buy new wedges twice a month, or that you should be shot for using wedges that may be nonconforming. We're just trying to set the facts straight. 

THere you go in case you missed it @TropicalSandTrap.

[TropicalSandTrap]

Phil stop making up rules. You said that removing material will make a club non conforming. PLease find the rule that says that. You can't because there isn't one. You just made it up.  You make up rules.

 

anyway, the groove sharpeners appear to have different sizes so if you are just using he small one and it adds a little depth where it was otherwise  down, that is totally fine. A person doesn't have to use a groove sharpener to aggressively change the dimensions of their grooves. 

Also, I am way more concerned about damaging the club in term of ripping off the chrome or whatever than I am about whether somebody like Phil is making up rules and calling people cheater even though he clearly doesn't know the rules. 

[billchao]

13 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

The rule is that grooves cannot go past a certain size

It's a little more complicated than that:

Quote

(i) Grooves Grooves must be straight and parallel. Grooves must have a plain*, symmetrical cross-section and have sides which do not converge (see Figure XI).

The width, spacing and cross-section of the grooves must be consistent throughout the impact area. The width (W) of each groove must not exceed 0.035 inches (0.9 mm), using the 30 degree method of measurement on file with the USGA. The distance between edges of adjacent grooves (S) must not be less than three times the width of the grooves, and not less than 0.075 inches (1.905 mm). The depth of each groove must not exceed 0.020 inches (0.508 mm). *For clubs other than driving clubs, the cross-sectional area (A) of a groove divided by the groove pitch (W+S) must not exceed 0.0030 square inches per inch (0.0762 mm2/mm) (see Figure XII).

Grooves must not have sharp edges or raised lips. *For clubs whose loft angle is greater than or equal to 25 degrees, groove edges must have an effective radius which is not less than 0.010 inches (0.254 mm) when measured as shown in Fig. XIII, and not greater than 0.020 inches (0.508 mm). Deviations in effective radius within 0.001 inches (0.0254 mm) are permissible.

Basically the area of concern is with the groove edges. If the sharpener cuts the edge beyond the accepted radius, your club will be deemed non-conforming.

[Jack Watson]

2 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

Phil stop making up rules. You said that removing material will make a club non conforming. PLease find the rule that says that. You can't because there isn't one. You just made it up.  You make up rules.

 

anyway, the groove sharpeners appear to have different sizes so if you are just using he small one and it adds a little depth where it was otherwise  down, that is totally fine. A person doesn't have to use a groove sharpener to aggressively change the dimensions of their grooves. 

Also, I am way more concerned about damaging the club in term of ripping off the chrome or whatever than I am about whether somebody like Phil is making up rules and calling people cheater even though he clearly doesn't know the rules. 

You don't make sense.

Anytime you sharpen chrome will be removed.

obviously you are not mechanically inclined.  Please cease posting on this topic and have a wonderful life.

[billchao]

3 minutes ago, TropicalSandTrap said:

anyway, the groove sharpeners appear to have different sizes so if you are just using he small one and it adds a little depth where it was otherwise  down, that is totally fine.

I don't think that's fine at all. If your club was already at the maximum groove depth, cutting it deeper most definitely makes it illegal.

[TropicalSandTrap]

Is there a device available to measure from it is conforming?  I have a few extra wedges I wouldn't mind one practicing on before fixing the ones I actually use. 

Just now, billchao said:

I don't think that's fine at all. If your club was already at the maximum groove depth, cutting it deeper most definitely makes it illegal.

If it is worn down then it is not at the maximum depth. So cutting it deeper wouldn't necessarily keep it illegal