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Shindig

Am I deluding myself about shaft flex?

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12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

A decent "fitting" helps a lot. Most people buy the wrong flex and it really stunts their golf potential.

Of course. If your swing speed is 80mph but bought a driver with a "stiff" shaft, obviously, you weren't too smart in your purchase.

20 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It doesn't have to be expensive. There are companies that sell new and used equipment here. and let you hit any club in the store for as long as you wish with between 4 to 10 Foresight GC2 monitors in that many hitting bays. I did that with all my club, but did pay for a fitting of my driver and 3W just to see if I got a better fit than just trying hundreds of clubs. Turns out that having the ability to try out as many clubs as possible with a LM at hand is just as good as the $150 type of fittings. The chain I like to go to knows this,and has many happy customers including myself and now the OP. Buy and sell used equipment and stock something for everyone.Genius.

i don't have an issue with trying new clubs to get what you need/want.

Your index tells me that you're "entitled" to club fitting..... :-)

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28 minutes ago, BallMarker said:

Yup.

if someone else is paying for your experiment, or you have money to burn, get as many fittings as you want...and more power to ya. I hope you get your money's worth.

But it's YOU who still have to swing the club....

While I generally tend to agree with myself, I would also like to bring up djake's and billchao's posts above. They both make great points. It is possible to outfit yourself with clubs that don't fit you at all, especially if you're a newb, paying all your own bills, and buying used.

That's exactly the worst case scenario. Could turn the person off the game forever. It's the pros and really good amateurs who can make off the shelf equipment perform at it's best. In addition to developing grooved swings, they've also developed "touch" and "feel", which I guess are the same thing. I'm far from either of those classifications, but I've played the game for 50 years and can tell pretty quickly whether or not a club feels good to me, will work for me.

Then there's iacas' post about how consistent golf swings are even among high handicappers. Once you've played for even a little while, these consistencies take hold. Making an effective change in your golf swing is one of the hardest things to do!

So, how do we make ourselves better without spending a ton on equipment? Here are some ideas. First, I'm amazed at the number of guys I run into who have no idea what their Driver and 5 iron clubhead speeds are! Even though this thread started out talking about shaft flex and how confusing it can be, knowing these numbers can at least give you something to go on. 15-20 minutes in a golf shop with a hitting bay and a launch monitor can provide you with these.

Next are two things that you can have checked and adjusted without spending a fortune. The first will seems very simple. Make sure your clubs are the right length for you. The vast majority of golfers can probably hit "standard" length clubs, but due to length creep by the manufacturers what is standard anymore? And maybe you're a guy with shorter or longer than normal arms, legs, torso, whatever! A simple wrist to floor measurement will give you that number, and a little research will tell you the proper length club.

The next is even more subtle, but may be the most important. Lie angle! If the lie angle for your clubs is wrong, you will struggle to hit the ball solidly except by accident! And the thing is, a dynamic lie fitting, with a qualified fitter, actually costs very little in the grand scheme of things. That is, for those clubs that can be bent to the proper lie. It's basically irons only.

If your irons, especially wedges, are inconsistent, I would highly recommend a "dynamic" lie fitting. This mean every iron club is hit off a lie board and individually bent to the proper lie. They aren't all the same in the set! Manufacturing inconsistencies can be there, even with the best quality control. When you're hitting a wedge, you should expect to end up on the green. If you don't consistently, something may be up.

And yes, cast irons can be bent, just not as much as forged irons. But it doesn't have to be much. I remember an article I read where John Daly was at some club company's fitting center being outfitted for a new set of clubs. He was hitting the irons, gave the set back to the fitter and told him to adjust the lie. The fitter brought the clubs back, Daly hit them again and began to smile! Daly said, "It's amazing what a quarter degree of lie adjustment can do for you!" That's right, 1/4 of one degree!

Now, Daly is one of those pros with all that touch and feel. But, if he can notice a difference in performance, I'm betting you can too!  

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8 hours ago, Lihu said:

Agree, and 160 is higher than your commensurate 220 yard driving distance. It's great you figured out everything so quickly. The Roger Dunn guys can fit you really well, and you don't have to pay for a $400 fitting. :-)

Nice job!Now you just have to get fit for a driver that'll get you 245 yards!

I'm missing something with this.  Why should my driver be getting me 245 yards?  Not that I'd complain if I got that of course. 

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Would we be having this conversation on a fishing forum?  I have a blue-million fishing rods; and I don't wonder which "flex" is right for me.  I use whatever I deem appropriate for whatever it is I intend to do.  I can play with A-flex, or X-flex, once I get the balance of it.  Familiarity is the key.

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29 minutes ago, Shindig said:

I'm missing something with this.  Why should my driver be getting me 245 yards?  Not that I'd complain if I got that of course. 

I'm just estimating from a chart. A 160 yard 6i should correspond roughly to 240 to 250 yards through the chart for SS versus distance. This assumes 8 yards roll? Not perfectly accurate, but that's where I got it from. . .

CarryDistanceSwingSpeedChart.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Piz said:

I can play with A-flex, or X-flex, once I get the balance of it.  Familiarity is the key.

I don't think this is true at all ... I mean, you can play -- it's not like an A flex is going to disintegrate on you or something, but the idea that it doesn't matter doesn't seem accurate. 

46 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'm just estimating from a chart. A 160 yard 6i should correspond roughly to 240 to 250 yards through the chart for SS versus distance. This assumes 8 yards roll? Not perfectly accurate, but that's where I got it from. . .

CarryDistanceSwingSpeedChart.jpg

 

Well,I think the 7-iron in their set has a loft closer to the 6-iron in your chart... but that would still be a 232 driver, which would be nice.  I think my good drives in the fairway (because roll) get out like that.  Not entirely sure.  Either way, I'd love to play a 380 yard hole as driver, 7-iron.

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Just now, Shindig said:

I don't think this is true at all ... I mean, you can play -- it's not like an A flex is going to disintegrate on you or something, but the idea that it doesn't matter doesn't seem accurate. 

This depends upon his swing. If he puts a lot of "lag", he could very well hit an A flex and still score okay. The flight would probably be really high and spin more.

 

Just now, Shindig said:

Well,I think the 7-iron in their set has a loft closer to the 6-iron in your chart... but that would still be a 232 driver, which would be nice.  I think my good drives in the fairway (because roll) get out like that.  Not entirely sure.  Either way, I'd love to play a 380 yard hole as driver, 7-iron.

Should be almost possible, at least in the summer. . .We should play a few rounds together. I'd like to check out the shiny new clubs you just bought. :-)

Also, I noticed in your 5 minute post that you wanted to hit actual balls before Monday. If you live where you discussed at the last outing, you're very close to Brookside. The driving range is decent and there's a decent short game area. The downside is you end up meeting the low life types like myself there, so expect to slum it a bit. :-D

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15 hours ago, Lihu said:

Also, I noticed in your 5 minute post that you wanted to hit actual balls before Monday. If you live where you discussed at the last outing, you're very close to Brookside. The driving range is decent and there's a decent short game area. The downside is you end up meeting the low life types like myself there, so expect to slum it a bit. :-D

Yep, going to hit the range later today.  I don't have the new clubs yet so no new information for this thread... yet.  

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On 8/31/2017 at 11:40 PM, BallMarker said:

IMHO: 99.99% of amateurs do fine with off-the-shelf golf clubs. Or even with someone else's hand-me-down....

@BallMarker, you play to  a 6 HDCP, so you have a good handle on the game. I suspect you're better able to make "any club work" for you than most golfers.

What I've noticed about many of the "just buy clubs and play" crowd is that they have low HDCPs and above-average athletic ability. Persons with superior hand-eye coordination and balance can better make subconscious adjustments with clubs than the average person. At demo days, I've seen golf pros pick up a fairway wood with rather different specs than what they play, and start hitting decent shots by the fourth ball.

As for me, I'm probably about 48th percentile in raw athletic ability. For people like me, the fittings help us find clubs that won't hurt our game.

I want to emphasize I'm not pinging on you personally. I'm just trying to inject the viewpoint of someone who plays quite a bit outside the single-digit zone, and who has benefited from fittings.

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53 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

@BallMarker, you play to  a 6 HDCP, so you have a good handle on the game. I suspect you're better able to make "any club work" for you than most golfers.

What I've noticed about many of the "just buy clubs and play" crowd is that they have low HDCPs and above-average athletic ability. Persons with superior hand-eye coordination and balance can better make subconscious adjustments with clubs than the average person. At demo days, I've seen golf pros pick up a fairway wood with rather different specs than what they play, and start hitting decent shots by the fourth ball.

As for me, I'm probably about 48th percentile in raw athletic ability. For people like me, the fittings help us find clubs that won't hurt our game.

I want to emphasize I'm not pinging on you personally. I'm just trying to inject the viewpoint of someone who plays quite a bit outside the single-digit zone, and who has benefited from fittings.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should blindly go into a golf shop and pick out a set of clubs and play. People usually swing several clubs of various brands and get an idea of what is best for them.

What I'm saying is if you're a person of "average" height and typical amateur swing speed, you'll do fine with most clubs with stock length and stock flex until you become a "good" players. To me a good weekend golfer is someone who can shoot about 84 consistently at a local public course. According to Golf Digest this player has golf index of 10.

Having to spend money on getting "professionally" fitted, whatever that entails, shouldn't be one of the first things you do when starting out. It seems to me a waste of time and money. I'd rather spend that money on lesson and practice.

Some day maybe I will decided to get fitted. But, for now, I know for sure that my weaknesses aren't because of my equipment.

Edited by BallMarker

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1 hour ago, WUTiger said:

@BallMarker, you play to  a 6 HDCP, so you have a good handle on the game. I suspect you're better able to make "any club work" for you than most golfers.

What I've noticed about many of the "just buy clubs and play" crowd is that they have low HDCPs and above-average athletic ability. Persons with superior hand-eye coordination and balance can better make subconscious adjustments with clubs than the average person. At demo days, I've seen golf pros pick up a fairway wood with rather different specs than what they play, and start hitting decent shots by the fourth ball.

As for me, I'm probably about 48th percentile in raw athletic ability. For people like me, the fittings help us find clubs that won't hurt our game.

I want to emphasize I'm not pinging on you personally. I'm just trying to inject the viewpoint of someone who plays quite a bit outside the single-digit zone, and who has benefited from fittings.

 

1 hour ago, BallMarker said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should blindly go into a golf shop and pick out a set of clubs and play. People usually swing several clubs of various brands and get an idea of what is best for them.

What I'm saying is if you're a person of "average" height and typical amateur swing speed, you'll do fine with most clubs with stock length and stock flex until you become a "good" players. To me a good weekend golfer is someone who can shoot about 84 consistently at a local public course. According to Golf Digest this player has golf index of 10.

Having to spend money on getting "professionally" fitted, whatever that entails, shouldn't be one of the first things you do when starting out. It seems to me a waste of time and money. I'd rather spend that money on lesson and practice.

Some day maybe I will decided to get fitted. But, for now, I know for sure that my weaknesses aren't because of my equipment.

 

Even though they are opposing views, I found that these two responses are quite good.

I think the fact that there are two very good arguments for "Lessons" versus "Fitting" probably mean the average person would benefit from both. :-)

 

Edited by Lihu

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On 9/3/2017 at 2:21 PM, Shindig said:

Yep, going to hit the range later today.  I don't have the new clubs yet so no new information for this thread... yet.  

How'd the new clubs perform? I see in another thread that you recently shot an 86. Nice!

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My bag always has been a mix of stiff and flex shafts. Also different brands of clubs. It was just one of those things where certain clubs felt and hit better with a perimeter weighted club and flex shaft and another iron a stiff blade. 

I'm going to try and get away from that habit this winter and just settle on a set of irons. But I know damn well I'll start swapping clubs out come April :-)

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51 minutes ago, Lihu said:

How'd the new clubs perform? I see in another thread that you recently shot an 86. Nice!

They're great.  I've played a 9 hole round, in which I was trying to hit as many irons as possible (as opposed to lowest score).  For example, I played one hole as 5-iron 9-iron instead, so I'd be able to hit both.  

Distance:  even accounting for the difference in loft, I'm hitting further.  I'll get fit for woods soon, too, as I don't think I should be on S-flex in my hybrids, but I'll let a fitter determine that.

The 86 was my first round with the new irons.  My literal first-ever shot with the 8-iron, didn't even hit it on the range, lead to a birdie (and a $70 skin).  Funny story for that round:  no 4s on the scorecard.  Bogey or double on 10 of the par-4s, birdie on the other.  Parred every par 3.  Didn't birdie any par-5.

I hook them a bit, but I hook my other clubs too.  I just have to get used to the shot cones.  

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37 minutes ago, Shindig said:

They're great.  I've played a 9 hole round, in which I was trying to hit as many irons as possible (as opposed to lowest score).  For example, I played one hole as 5-iron 9-iron instead, so I'd be able to hit both.  

Distance:  even accounting for the difference in loft, I'm hitting further.  I'll get fit for woods soon, too, as I don't think I should be on S-flex in my hybrids, but I'll let a fitter determine that.

The 86 was my first round with the new irons.  My literal first-ever shot with the 8-iron, didn't even hit it on the range, lead to a birdie (and a $70 skin).  Funny story for that round:  no 4s on the scorecard.  Bogey or double on 10 of the par-4s, birdie on the other.  Parred every par 3.  Didn't birdie any par-5.

I hook them a bit, but I hook my other clubs too.  I just have to get used to the shot cones.  

Cool! Glad you like them. :-)

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