Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[Big C]

Erik, I've thought for awhile now that you are quite a ways off base on the importance of the mental game. In part because it's not something that's really quantifiable. And in part because it's not something that you have ever personally struggled with. And that's a great problem to have, but it kind of makes you out of touch with a good portion of the golfing population who have experienced significant confidence/mental issues at some point in their competitive career. 

I would argue that you are far more of an outlier that @Dean Walker is. It's funny because I was reading his post about feeling absolute terror over a basic chip shot and nodding to myself silently in my head. I had a similar feeling during my first competitive round of 2018, blading 3 basic chip shots across the green in comical fashion on a single hole. I probably hadn't bladed a single chip in the preceding 5 rounds, but the pressure got to me, I couldn't reset myself and my chipping snowballed from there. By the turn, I was basically terrified of leaving myself a short game shot and I took to putting everything I could within 10 yards of the green. I am not a great short game player, but if you watched my casual rounds or my practice, you would think I was at least adequate. But under the pressure of competition, I fell apart in a way that I never have in a casual round.

I think it's telling that you are getting the most pushback on this topic from low handicap golfers who have competed frequently. To me, the term "mental game" doesn't even really exist in a casual round. Sure, there are things like course management, club selection, not compounding mistakes, etc. But those are fairly minor and I would tend to agree with you (I think) that they have little impact on your overall score.

But the ability to adopt (or even just be born with) a mindset that allows you to play confident golf regardless of the stakes or the importance of the round is significant. And as you get to the upper levels of the game, I suspect that it's value becomes even more pronounced. I believe there are guys out there with PGA tour swings who will never make it that far because they cannot play their best golf when the stakes are highest. For those guys, the mental game might be as high as 50%. 

I think the gap in perception comes from the fact that if you haven't experienced some of the feelings outlined in earlier posts, there is really no way to understand how real they can be. For those of us who have, they almost cannot be understated. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Big C
minor clarification

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, Big C said:

I think it's telling that you are getting the most pushback on this topic from low handicap golfers who have competed frequently.

I was kind of wondering about this. Almost every lower handicap player I know says mental game is huge.

Until I played a round with 16 strokes in my favor, I had no idea what it was like to play with no pressure. Playing for bogey on 16 holes with a occasional easy par was a really big eye opener for me. Before that, I was thinking mental game is less than 5%, after that I'm thinking it's way more than that.

 

8 minutes ago, Big C said:

To me, the term "mental game" doesn't even really exist in a casual round. Sure, there are things like course management, club selection, not compounding mistakes, etc. But those are fairly minor and I would tend to agree with you (I think) that they have little impact on your overall score.

Agree, with nothing at stake, no one really feels any pressure.

If you had to play for high enough stakes that losing could "hurt", I'd wager that anyone would feel some or a lot of mental pressure.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

Erik, I've thought for awhile now that you are quite a ways off base on the importance of the mental game. In part because it's not something that's really quantifiable. And in part because it's not something that you have ever personally struggled with. And that's a great problem to have, but it kind of makes you out of touch with a good portion of the golfing population who have experienced significant confidence/mental issues at some point in their competitive career.

And I've continued to think that you drastically over-state the importance of the mental game.

I may not have ever really struggled with it, but I have seen and taught a few thousand golfers at this point. Their scores are generally where they should be given their physical abilities and swings. So no, your "out of touch" comment would only apply if I had access to only my own abilities, thoughts, mechanics, etc.

And I considered all of that in arriving at what I've said. For me, again to go back to the FAR less than ideal "%" stuff, maybe I'm at 1%. For the average golfer, I'll stick with the 5% number I casually threw out earlier.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

I would argue that you are far more of an outlier that @Dean Walker is.

You could, but the yips are an outlier, so you've got a lot of work ahead of you. And… he's a 0.3. So… good luck.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

By the turn, I was basically terrified of leaving myself a short game shot and I took to putting everything I could within 10 yards of the green.

Because you're an outlier (or had one outlier round), you're giving too much weight to another outlier.

Thing is… we almost never have outlier physical rounds. Our physical skill - not excluding the small bits of randomness that exist for everyone - is pretty consistent. That's why bogey golfers typically shoot 88 to 96 or whatever, and they almost never just randomly shoot 71.

It's possible to have an occasional outlier in the mental game (which often then manifests in a physical "dis"ability).

So, another way in which people attribute things to the mental game. You're basing part of the way you feel on ONE round.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

I think it's telling that you are getting the most pushback on this topic from low handicap golfers who have competed frequently.

I don't. As you compete that 5% carries a bit more weight. The edges you can have over others get smaller, so you have to fire on all cylinders.

That's why a PGA Tour player will talk about mental stuff (despite not hiring a mental game coach). It's just one more small edge. But it's a small edge.

Dustin Johnson could be in the worst mental state in the world, and he'd still destroy you (or me) on the golf course in our best mental state.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

To me, the term "mental game" doesn't even really exist in a casual round.

Sure it does. It's defined in the first post.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

But the ability to adopt (or even just be born with) a mindset that allows you to play confident golf regardless of the stakes or the importance of the round is significant.

Players have won majors admitting that they were choking their guts out, freaking out, nervous as hell… etc. Their physical skills pulled them through. Ken Venturi was practically near death when he won the U.S. Open. He was in a daze. He won.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

And as you get to the upper levels of the game, I suspect that it's value becomes even more pronounced.

Only because everything becomes more pronounced.

Tiger was #1 in the world from some distance, and yet what separated him from the guy in last was three feet. He was three feet closer.

EVERYTHING gains significance in the higher levels of the game, because the margins and edges become so much tighter.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

I believe there are guys out there with PGA tour swings who will never make it that far because they cannot play their best golf when the stakes are highest. For those guys, the mental game might be as high as 50%.

Look, if you're going to say something that I regard as that ridiculous, we are clearly not talking about things the same way.

The "%" way of looking at things is not ideal, but 50% is just flat out ridiculous.

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

I think the gap in perception comes from the fact that if you haven't experienced some of the feelings outlined in earlier posts, there is really no way to understand how real they can be. For those of us who have, they almost cannot be understated.

People with the yips - and people who freak out playing in a tournament like you did - are outliers.

@mvmac has been playing some higher level golf lately. He's still on board with saying the mental game is a tiny portion of what separates players from one another.

It's not just me.

And again, we're clearly defining things very differently if you could ever say that the mental game is 50% of something. I think my earlier 5% statement is generous on some days.

---

I think people who give a lot of weight to the mental game are not considering the past/previous work they put into the physical game.

Put it this way: if every day you started over as an almost beginner golfer (which, mentally, you were in the tournament in which you played), in ALL aspects of the game, including the physical… you'd probably agree that my 5% number is generous. I'm not saying you start over mentally from a beginner on every shot or for each round, but you cannot and do not have the massive swings in talent that you have in the physical parts that you can have mentally.

You're likely not giving much due consideration to the accumulation of your physical skills. They're not going to have you whiffing. They're not going to have you playing at a beginner level one day. They simply don't fluctuate that much. So you attribute far too much to the mental game, if only because you severely downplay how much the physical game contributes.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Big C said:

In part because it's not something that's really quantifiable.

 

Good conversation and points from both @Big C and @iacas in the previous couple of posts.  The above, though, might be the biggest factor in the different perceptions.  I'm guessing that you might not disagree as much as you think; you're just each applying the percentages differently.

Colin says as much as 50%, but I do not think that he means to say that an 80 shooter with a spot-on mental game becomes a 120 shooter when his mental game eludes him.  So I don't think that his 50% applies linearly to strokes, whereas, that might be exactly what Erik is saying.  5% to an 80 shooter is 4 strokes one way or another.

Again, I'm betting that you guys agree a teeny bit more than you think and are arguing for and against numbers that are on scales that don't line up. 

[iacas]

No, I’m not applying it to strokes. I made that clear earlier to @Ty_Webb. You can’t shoot zero and so the scale wouldn’t be linear even if you could try to do it that way.

To say that 50% of “what goes into your score” that day is mental is ridiculous IMO. It seemingly gives no weight or credit to the thousands of hours of practice and your natural ability that go into the current state of your physical game. You’re taking that part for granted.

Give your mental game to a PGA Tour player and they’ll still play great golf. Give your mental game to a beginner and they’ll still shoot 120.

[Ty_Webb]

Just now, iacas said:

No, I’m not applying it to strokes. I made that clear earlier to @Ty_Webb. You can’t shoot zero and so the scale wouldn’t be linear even if you could try to do it that way.

To say that 50% of “what goes into your score” that day is ridiculous IMO. It gives no weight or credit to the thousands of hours and your natural ability that go into the current state of your physical game.

Give your mental game to a PGA Tour player and they’ll still play great golf. Give your mental game to a beginner and they’ll still shoot 120.

All true, but the difference between Tiger Woods at his best and Dustin Johnson at his best might well split closer to 50/50 mental physical (in fact, it almost certainly will) than the difference between Dustin Johnson at his best and Joe 90 at his best. That's why I think it's ridiculous to assign any one number to that difference. The percentage changes enormously depending on the specifics of the question. Two people who have identical physical abilities but differing mental abilities will see a difference in their scores, which breaks down between random variation and mental abilities. Over a long period, the random variation will be zero, which means that the difference between those two players is 100% mental. If those two players are someone playing on Saturday, and the same person playing on Sunday, then to the extent that their scores are different, that's mental. All of it (maybe some because pins on Sunday are harder than Saturday, but the majority of that difference is having the final check on the line).

By the way - anecdotal evidence of some guy who's throwing up all over himself and still manages to win has no more weight than someone else who chokes up their score horrendously (cough Greg Norman cough). 

13 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Good conversation and points from both @Big C and @iacas in the previous couple of posts.  The above, though, might be the biggest factor in the different perceptions.  I'm guessing that you might not disagree as much as you think; you're just each applying the percentages differently.

Colin says as much as 50%, but I do not think that he means to say that an 80 shooter with a spot-on mental game becomes a 120 shooter when his mental game eludes him.  So I don't think that his 50% applies linearly to strokes, whereas, that might be exactly what Erik is saying.  5% to an 80 shooter is 4 strokes one way or another.

Again, I'm betting that you guys agree a teeny bit more than you think and are arguing for and against numbers that are on scales that don't line up. 

Now that's what I thought Erik meant in his original post. Then he said it wasn't and he wasn't referring to strokes at all (I kind of figured that's how we compare players with each other in general). He was I thought suggesting that he didn't mean 5% of 80 meaning 4 strokes, but rather 5% of the difference. Ho hum...

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

All true, but the difference between Tiger Woods at his best and Dustin Johnson at his best might well split closer to 50/50 mental physical.

That’s a pretty dumb way to look at things. If you literally had perfectly identical players physically (obviously can’t happen) then you could say 100% of the difference is mental.

But whether they shoot 112 vs. 114 or 71 vs. 70 is physical.

You guys are taking the current state of the physical game for granted. In the Tiger-DJ example or the “identical” one you’re literally completely eliminating it.

---

If the mental game was anywhere near 50% players would spend a HELL of a lot more time working on it.

Caddies would be actual psychologists. There’s too much money in the game.

[Golfingdad]

16 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Over a long period, the random variation will be zero, which means that the difference between those two players is 100% mental.

This whole conversation keeps reminding me of Yogi Berra, who I don't think ANYBODY here would disagree with:

"Baseball is 90% mental ... and the other half is physical."

---

But seriously, how do you quantify it?  If I spend hours and hours on my swing, but then have a brainfart and forget my swing thought about tempo, hit it OB, and make double, how much of that was caused by the mental game?  I dunno.

Or, if I talk myself into firing at a pin that I should know better than to take on, leading to a bogey, when the center of the green would've meant an easy par, how much of that was mental?  Again, I dunno.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Golfingdad

[saevel25]

It’s such a nice day out here in Ohio, low 50’s. I decided to work on my mental game at the range. The great thing is I only need one golf ball. I just set up to the ball and envision my swing and really focus. Then I back off and repeat many times. I don’t actually ever hit a ball. 

[mvmac]

If the mental game is so important then how the heck are the two top players DJ and Jon Rahm? 

DJ is brain dead (his coach's own words) and Rahm wears his emotions on his sleeve and gets visibly upset every time a shot doesn't come off perfectly. 

It's because they are physically better than everyone else, they hit it better/farther/closer than everyone else.

7 hours ago, Big C said:

And that's a great problem to have, but it kind of makes you out of touch with a good portion of the golfing population who have experienced significant confidence/mental issues at some point in their competitive career. 

Then I'm very much in touch with most of the golfing population. A mental coach would probably say I have a below average mental game. I'm not always as focused as I want to be, I get nervous, I think about where not to hit it, I hardly ever visualize my shots, I can get superstitious, I rarely "think positively".

Yet I don't really care about all that because it doesn't matter. Being nervous doesn't have much impact on the result of the shot. I've hit my best shots when I've been nervous and hit horrible shots practicing on the range by myself.

At the end of the day the better my swing gets the better my mental game gets.

In college I would struggle with a duck hook from time to time. So depending on the hole or certain part of the course things could get a little shaky. That shot is basically out of my game now so that miss is no longer a concern. Nothing changed with my mental game, my swing just got better.

7 hours ago, Big C said:

It's funny because I was reading his post about feeling absolute terror over a basic chip shot and nodding to myself silently in my head. I had a similar feeling during my first competitive round of 2018, blading 3 basic chip shots across the green in comical fashion on a single hole. I probably hadn't bladed a single chip in the preceding 5 rounds, but the pressure got to me, I couldn't reset myself and my chipping snowballed from there. By the turn, I was basically terrified of leaving myself a short game shot and I took to putting everything I could within 10 yards of the green. I am not a great short game player, but if you watched my casual rounds or my practice, you would think I was at least adequate. But under the pressure of competition, I fell apart in a way that I never have in a casual round.

To be quite frank it's more than likely something physical, something is off with your mechanics. You're nervous because you know your stroke can produce inconsistent results. If you got your technique good enough to pitch off a green (example) you'd have a different experience next time you played in a tournament. Not saying you wouldn't have doubts, but the better technique will lead to better shots and "calm" the nerves in the long run.

Kind of like when Tiger was labeled with the yips. He didn't have the yips, he had crappy mechanics that caused the leading edge to dig into the ground. Did Tiger look uncomfortable hitting some short shots, of course he did because his technique was producing crappy shots. Now his short game is pretty darn good again....his mental game didn't get any better, his mechanics improved.

I went through this recently with my putting. It's sucked for the past couple months to where I was shaky over semi-gimme putts. Week and a half ago I changed my grip and stance a bit, started seeing the ball roll in. I bet when I stand over a 3ft putt tomorrow I'm still going to feel uneasy but I'll probably still make it because the mechanics are a lot better.

7 hours ago, Big C said:

But the ability to adopt (or even just be born with) a mindset that allows you to play confident golf regardless of the stakes or the importance of the round is significant. And as you get to the upper levels of the game, I suspect that it's value becomes even more pronounced. I believe there are guys out there with PGA tour swings who will never make it that far because they cannot play their best golf when the stakes are highest. 

Nobody has or ever will have that mindset for an entire round, it's impossible. The mind/your emotions are ebbing and flowing. No one has ever had first tee jitters for 18 holes just like you can't be positive for 18 holes.

Tiger gets nervous, Jack got nervous, Bobby Jones would get physically ill before rounds because he was so nervous. Again, you can be nervous, uncomfortable, unsure and still play great golf.

I think that might be another type of myth that people think tour players have some sort of mental strength over most golfers. They experience the same emotions, same doubts, same brain farts as the rest of us. You'd be surprised at how fragile a lot of tour player's minds are, and at some of the bad stuff that creeps into their heads.

8 hours ago, Big C said:

For those guys, the mental game might be as high as 50%. 

I agree with @iacas that it's around 5%.

6 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

But seriously, how do you quantify it?  If I spend hours and hours on my swing, but then have a brainfart and forget my swing thought about tempo, hit it OB, and make double, how much of that was caused by the mental game?  I dunno.

It can be tough to quantify but it's not much.

I bet you've also forgotten your swing thought and hit some really good shots.

[kpaulhus]

Hideki thinks he hits crap shots 75% of the time the camera is on him but somehow they end up next to the flag. The mental part of golf is not as nearly as important as the physical part. I've been told I'm the most upbeat and positive optimistic guy on the course and my handicap has gone from a 2.7 18 months ago to now a 10. Golf is physical. My mind game hasn't changed. My swing has. 

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, kpaulhus said:

Hideki thinks he hits crap shots 75% of the time the camera is on him but somehow they end up next to the flag. The mental part of golf is not as nearly as important as the physical part. I've been told I'm the most upbeat and positive optimistic guy on the course and my handicap has gone from a 2.7 18 months ago to now a 10. Golf is physical. My mind game hasn't changed. My swing has. 

What changed your swing?

[Jack Watson]

EJ would say the mental side is primarily proper focal point and eliminating conscious interference.  That’s why I think it’s so mental.

Consciously trying to control is not swinging for me it hacking.

just my take.

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Yet I don't really care about all that because it doesn't matter. Being nervous doesn't have much impact on the result of the shot. I've hit my best shots when I've been nervous and hit horrible shots practicing on the range by myself.

Actually nervousness can be used to enhance focus. 

I definitely play my best when I get out of my own way. Yet, I know there are situations were I do need to focus a bit more to keep things from getting wild. 

No way I shoot what I can if I didn't have the physical ability to do so. I can go to the range and see someone hit terrible shots. They could have 10x the mental focus, fortitude, etc than I have. They will never beat me in an even match. 

21 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I agree with @iacas that it's around 5%.

I would say less than 5%. Probably 5% max. 

 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Kind of like when Tiger was labeled with the yips. He didn't have the yips, he had crappy mechanics that caused the leading edge to dig into the ground. Did Tiger look uncomfortable hitting some short shots, of course he did because his technique was producing crappy shots. Now his short game is pretty darn good again....his mental game didn't get any better, his mechanics improved.

Yup.

21 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I think that might be another type of myth that people think tour players have some sort of mental strength over most golfers. They experience the same emotions, same doubts, same brain farts as the rest of us. You'd be surprised at how fragile a lot of tour player's minds are, and at some of the bad stuff that creeps into their heads.

Absolutely.

---

Again, guys, you're not giving enough credit to the amount of work and the time and effort you've put into your golf swing at any given point in time. You take it for granted.

You've hit good shots with a bad mental process, and poor ones with a great mental process. The R² value of that graph is nowhere near 1.0. Your physical game sets a baseline, and your mental game that day moves the score you shoot that day, on average, just a little.

2 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

EJ would say the mental side is primarily proper focal point and eliminating conscious interference.  That’s why I think it’s so mental.

That makes no sense because I could find someone who is the best in the world at having a "proper focal point" and "eliminating conscious interference," but if they've never played golf before they're going to lose to a drunk and high Dustin Johnson playing left-handed.

[kpaulhus]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

What changed your swing?

The drive to be better. I wasn't content with shooting 80-82 anymore with the occasional 73-75 to keep my index low when the putter got hot. Making swing changes while playing 180+ rounds a year is going to reflect in your handicap. I have always leaned more on playing than practicing, so I could have stayed a 3 index and not played for 6 months while working on my swing, but I enjoy playing. I've committed more time this year to seeing the changes through, but I can tell you that absolutely nothing relayed to my swing, or improving my game is mental at this point. I've won and lost $100 Nassau's, so pressure isn't that big of a deal. I played in a US Mid Am qualifier and I was nervous and so jacked up I hit a 4 iron 260 yards on the first tee.  Bad swings are usually a physical, not mental issue. If golf was about mental game more guys from Harvard would be on the leaderboard. 

[Jack Watson]

Id say one reason DJ is as good as he is is because his mind is not as susceptible as some others to conscious thought.

EJ never said skill does not have to be developed he just talked about the best way to develop it.  

[saevel25]

Just now, Jack Watson said:

Id say one reason DJ is as good as he is is because his mind is not as susceptible as some others to conscious thought.

It also cost him when he didn't read the dame rules sheet at whistling straits ;)

Lets say we take his exact same mental make up and say he can only hit the ball 200 yards off the tee. Does he play on the PGA Tour? Of course not, he didn't have the physical ability to do so. 

Heck, I played a great Volleyball game last Monday. I felt hyper focused. I didn't want to sit around. I just wanted to keep playing. I would get smashed by a college volleyball team. I might have been honed in for that game. I played at a higher level for myself. I would get demolished by an actually gifted volleyball player,.