Golf's Mental Game Aspect

[allenc]

2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

I don't think I'm overlooking that. Clearly the vast majority of the difference between a tour player and an 18 handicap is physical. But what about the difference between two tour players? Do you think the difference between them is 5% mental and 95% physical? Why do you suppose peak Tiger was such a good closer compared to other players who were not?

Or a different question - my range of scores is around 7 or 8 shots wide most of the time. In my last 20, my lowest is 71 and my highest is 81. The 81 was in miserable weather where I struggled to hold on to the club because I was so wet. So if that range of scores is explained by 5% mental differences and 95% physical differences (or 0.4 shots mental and 7.6 shots physical), what's the point of reading Lowest Score Wins?

or to put that yet another way, why not just aim at all the flags? It only makes 0.4 shots difference anyway...

The difference between #1 and #2 golfer in the world might be 100% mental.  Just like the difference between an 18 handicap and an 18.1 handicap might be 100% mental.  But it’s not saying much to say the mental game is worth 0.1 shots per round.

[Jack Watson]

4 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I've read both books. I get the opposite sense from them than you seem to. I feel Gallway's ideas help you take your mind out of the game. Being in the "zone" is when your physical self takes over and controls everything.

A busy mind in sports causes confusion for your body. Don't think, just play.

There was an extension of these ideas in an episode of Scientific American Frontiers with Alan Alda that ran 15 years ago.  It was called Quiet Eye. Researchers presented this technique with putting in the episode. They showed that your brain doesn't need more input to execute the putt. First, the player stared and the hole and the line of the putt. Then, without ever looking up again, they executed the putt. Tests showed better accuracy and speed control with this method. They, in effect, took their mind out of the putt and just let their body execute. Their brain already knew where the hole was.

I use this method when putting and Dave Stockton teaches it. He teaches students to never look up again at the hole after setting up. 

I used this same approach coaching my teams in soccer, especially with free kicks and penalty shots. Stare and the net and pick your spot (Aim Point). Without ever looking up at the net or keeper again, take your shot. It not only resulted in a better shot, but the keeper had no clue to where they were going. They took their active mind out of execution and let their body take control.

We taught this in our bike riding clinics when I was racing too. Look only where you want go, not at the other riders or obstacle in Mountain Biking. Your brain knows where the obstacles are. Let you physical self take control. Try this. Place a stick on the grass and ride over it looking at the stick. Then do it again without looking at it, but after it, where you want to go. Your peripheral vision sees the stick, no need to keep focus on it and in effect have your active mind control you.

All of this applies to golf. Get your mind out of the shot execution business. Use your active mind to pick the club and aim point. Let it line your body up. Then turn it off and let your physical self execute. I play much better this way. When I was down to a 10 HC, I was playing this way. I need to get back to it when my injuries heal. I need to practice smart to get my swing to be better and just play on the course.

Kinda off topic but on the last paragraph here on lining up...I've had several low single digit to scratch golfers tell me that they 'let' the body line up based on shot/target.  I get that.  When I throw a ball my lower body does whatever it does and I throw the ball well.  But,  for me personally,  alignment on long shots is a very specific conscious process.  I just can't line up at all consistently without using the intermediate target line clubface to start line conscious method.  I've experimented with the 'Zen' alignment and I get way off. That alone could take my round six shots either way depending therefore a couple years ago I went with the rigid approach and will never look back.    I almost never look up again after the line is chosen because I don't care what's out there I care about the start line.   I think your get the conscious ego mind out of the shot comment is on the money expirentially 100%.

I like your post.  We are referring to the same skill of getting out of ones own way which in fact frees something up to perform at a higher level.  

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

I don't think I'm overlooking that. Clearly the vast majority of the difference between a tour player and an 18 handicap is physical. But what about the difference between two tour players? 

a) people is plural. I may not have even been including you.

b) same. Mostly physical by far.

[Jack Watson]

Greg N.  here questioned by Nantz after collapsing in 1996.  Watching this it seems to me that there's no way Norman was gonna share what was really going on inside publicly and I don't blame him a bit...

Choking is something that happens at times to people.  It's part of the mental aspect of golf for sure.

[iacas]

Choking is not entirely mental either. In fact it’s only a problem when the mental aspect of choking leads to physical differences.

The root cause is mental but I’ve seen people mentally choke and their physical skills on autopilot got them through.

[saevel25]

If you look at the scorecard. Greg had a tough stretch from 9 thru 12, going +5. He then got two birdies over the next three holes before having that infamous tee shot into the water on #17.

After hole #12 he probably went into super aggressive mode knowing he had 7 holes left to make up 4 strokes. 

Was there some strategic errors, sure. He did mishit some shots. #10 he yanked his ball left of the pin. #11 he three putted. #12 it looks like he toed the shot and flared it out to the right slightly. 

 

[JonMA1]

10 hours ago, boogielicious said:

There was an extension of these ideas in an episode of Scientific American Frontiers with Alan Alda that ran 15 years ago.  It was called Quiet Eye. Researchers presented this technique with putting in the episode. They showed that your brain doesn't need more input to execute the putt. First, the player stared and the hole and the line of the putt. Then, without ever looking up again, they executed the putt. Tests showed better accuracy and speed control with this method. They, in effect, took their mind out of the putt and just let their body execute. Their brain already knew where the hole was.

After tanking in last night's round by trying to eliminate excessive thought, I played another 9 today after reading this post and tried to apply it to full swings.

Yesterday, I'd step up to the ball and swing - a "just swing the club" kind of approach. There was excessive poor contact and crappy 2-way dispersion.

Today, I'd put considerable thought into alignment and practice swings - pre-shot. I'd then step up to to my ball and swing thinking only of pace and a proper swing path (determined beforehand and without looking at the target again). In other words, after establishing the starting line the shot needed to take, I left almost everything else up to mechanics. (Maybe fairly obvious to others, but something I don't always do.)

Night and day difference with quality strikes and really tight dispersion today. I played to my realistic ability.

Obviously, two 9-hole rounds don't mean a damned thing, but I wonder if putting the right amount or the right types of thought in place helps the physical part of the swing.

That, or I just got more sleep last night.

[Lihu]

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

After tanking in last night's round by trying to eliminate excessive thought, I played another 9 today after reading this post and tried to apply it to full swings.

Yesterday, I'd step up to the ball and swing - a "just swing the club" kind of approach. There was excessive poor contact and crappy 2-way dispersion.

Today, I'd put considerable thought into alignment and practice swings - pre-shot. I'd then step up to to my ball and swing thinking only of pace and a proper swing path (determined beforehand and without looking at the target again). In other words, after establishing the starting line the shot needed to take, I left almost everything else up to mechanics. (Maybe fairly obvious to others, but something I don't always do.)

Night and day difference with quality strikes and really tight dispersion today. I played to my realistic ability.

Obviously, two 9-hole rounds don't mean a damned thing, but I wonder if putting the right amount or the right types of thought in place helps the physical part of the swing.

You’re right, 2 rounds don’t mean squat in the overall scheme of things. I wouldn’t give my management reports based off of two data points, just like I wouldn’t conclude anything based on 2 data points either. You’d literally need hundreds.

I can see that some people need more conscious effort to make a swing than others especially when making swing changes.

I don’t think anyone said that 99% applies to every single person all the time, but when you ingrain more of the stuff it becomes more automatic and uses less conscious mental effort.

From what I’m reading in your posts you use a lot more mental effort than perhaps a typical golfer with your level of experience would normally require, but not impossible.  Many people will have ingrained most of a swing possibly put less than 5% mental effort? I know many people who started when I did who’ve ingrained swings and a few who have not done so well.

The Golf Swing is very difficult to learn because there are so many things you can do wrong, and it takes conscious effort to make improvements. Once the improvements are made, they become ingrained or subconscious. So, a Swing becomes less of a conscious activity.

 

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

That, or I just got more sleep last night.

Sleep helps in general.

[MarvChamp]

50 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Today, I'd put considerable thought into alignment and practice swings - pre-shot. I'd then step up to to my ball and swing thinking only of pace and a proper swing path (determined beforehand and without looking at the target again). In other words, after establishing the starting line the shot needed to take, I left almost everything else up to mechanics. (Maybe fairly obvious to others, but something I don't always do.)

Hmm. Sounds like focus and concentration and awareness (mental) pretty balanced with physical? -Marv

[JonMA1]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Once the improvements are made, they become ingrained or subconscious

Or so you'd think.

1 minute ago, MarvChamp said:

Hmm. Sounds like focus and concentration and awareness (mental) pretty balanced with physical? -Marv

I don't know much about any of this. I have such a loose grasp on reality within my own game, I can't even begin to form opinions about others.

Still, it's an interesting topic and if a change can help shave 1 stroke per round, it's worth discussing.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Or so you'd think.

Just from my own experience, and I asked a few playing partners in the 10-12 HC range receiving a resounding “Golf is 100% physical. I score bad when I hit bad.” type of response. But I’m not going to base anything on just 5 opinions. . . 

 

6 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I don't know much about any of this. I have such a loose grasp on reality within my own game, I can't even begin to form opinions about others.

This is possibly because your Swing is not automatic. In fact, the way you describe your game it sounds very much conscious. 

I can’t fathom playing an entire round like that either.

So, this kind of goes two ways.

 

6 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Still, it's an interesting topic and if a change can help shave 1 stroke per round, it's worth discussing.

One stroke is like nothing. My good and bad rounds vary 10 times that or more. Even at a 10 HC I varied 10 strokes. Why would I put emphasis on something that contributes less than 10% of my game? It makes more sense for me to work on my Swing, chipping and putting which are the other >90%.

I totally understand where you are coming from, and if this poll came up 5 years ago, I would have answered 50/50. But I’ve improved my Swing well enough to know better.

[JonMA1]

I'm trying very hard (and failing) to comprehend your point(s) and how they relate to my posts you continue to quote @Lihu.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, JonMA1 said:

I'm trying very hard (and failing) to comprehend your point(s) and how they relate to my posts you continue to quote @Lihu.

I think you’d need to look back at your response to me to follow the train of thought. Maybe it derailed?

The way you answered makes me think you don’t have an ingrained Swing that works for you. So, I’m not trying to imply anything bad, I just don’t play Golf like you and have no understanding of your current position on mental game.

[JonMA1]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

your current position

I think the mental game has an effect on my score. In my first post I guessed it was something like 10-15%. 

It's just an opinion, not something I'd consider to be a "position".

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I think the mental game has an effect on my score. In my first post I guessed it was something like 10-15%. 

It's just an opinion, not something I'd consider to be a "position".

I can live with that, just as you should also accept that for some it’s only 1%.

Cheers

[Buckeyebowman]

19 hours ago, mvmac said:

What you just said basically answers your questions, it's how your swing feels to you, that's physical. There is no mental training you can do to change that.

Remember how @iacas defined the mental in the first post

 

Maybe for a short amount of time but you can't be nervous for an entire round of golf, emotions are fluid, they are always changing (especially during a round of golf). 

You originally said, "I have other days where I feel like I have two left arms. No matter what I do, I can barely get the ball on the golf course." Again that sounds physical. Nerves will only have so much of an effect on your swing. Being nervous doesn't automatically result in bad shots. Some of my best shots I've hit have been when I've been nervous.

Xander Schauffele is a member of my club and he was out there a few days ago. He was talking about how nervous he was on the back nine of the tour championship. If you recall he hit a ton of good shots that last day, in spite of letting his mind wander to how much money was on the line.

At the end of the day golfers with better mechanics (better physical ability) are going to shoot lower scores than golfers with less physical ability, regardless of how good or bad their mental games are.

True that! Back in the day we played a very popular local course that is quite difficult. 45 years ago you dropped your ball in the inclined tube, and when the starter pulled your ball out, your group was up! On a weekend morning there would be 40-50 guys around that first tee! All watching you!

Talk about something to make you cat nervous! But I'd generally stripe a nice one down the middle, but I was hitting balls nearly every day.

I don't think I could do that today!

[Jack Watson]

@JonMA1

I was taught that preshot routine (psr) is important.  IMO one of the most beneficial things I have done was several years ago deciding on my psr.  I think imo on psr it's not a silly thing like waggle three times and hit or step in right leg before left or things like that.  There are superstitions and stuff that are unnecessary to PHYSICALLY EXECUTING.  A couple years back I decided to strip the thing down to its essentials and come up with my personal method for executing a full shot which I have not changed for a couple years now.  I have seen benefits to this call it consistency of mental approach to setup alignment,  measurement,  and grip.  My personal experience has been that I make more successful shots by getting into the psr vs before when my psr could vary.  I am a big believer that nothing unnecessary should be in my psr.  In my experience this has helped me over time.  I like the idea of letting myself go mentally at all times when I am essentially hanging out on a golf course with whoever I am playing with just having fun.  When it's my turn I get down to business and I really believe for me that helps make better shots more often.  Jmo.

[Jack Watson]

There's ideas I'd like to share here since I sort of promoted Gallwey.  I wholeheartedly believe in his ideas first off however they are based in tennis.  In tennis,  the racquet is essentially very 'light' in comparison to the golf club.  So,  imo the problems faced by the golfer physically are different to the problems faced by the tennis player.

In golf we all know feel is not real;  every teacher brings this up and it's very true.   Why?  IMO it's because of the club.  The clubs in golf are relatively long and the weight is at the end.  IMO it's tougher in golf to 'imitate' another swing vs in tennis.  It's physics.  In tennis I can imitate any players swing mechanics pretty well.  In golf it's far tougher because of the physics.  In golf the forces we are dealing with as we swing are much greater than in tennis where the tool is relatively short and light.  

I believe that it can be very tough in golf for example for an overswinger to shorten the swing.  That was my experience.  I simply failed to understand momentum.  You cant just swing back and stop wherever you want.  Absolutely you stop applying force at some point going back but there's momentum in the swing at that point and it carries the club further back past where you 'feel'.  The same effect is present coming forward.  The forces of the swing are what makes feel and real differ and it's what makes golf a different problem from tennis mechanically.  

So,  imo Gallwey's mental approach is still correct.  You can't think a swing.  You do however have to realize the fact that while you feel you are doing something,  it happens during other forces which make it a little more complicated.  

So,  people get confused when what they feel they are doing looks nothing like a result on video.

I felt it was important that I in no way discount the physical issues faced by the golfer.