New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[Hardluckster]

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that if I am presented with evidence that I unknowingly violated a rule then the committee will not have to apply a penalty - I'll apply it myself.  Whatever that penalty may be.  

Honor and integrity are paramount.  Honor and integrity are more valuable than any trophy or award.

Any competitor who would put "winning" above honor is a sad individual with very little self-respect.  Why should they have my respect when they do not respect themselves enough to do the honorable and right thing.

[Lihu]

11 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that if I am presented with evidence that I unknowingly violated a rule then the committee will not have to apply a penalty - I'll apply it myself.  Whatever that penalty may be.  

Honor and integrity are paramount.  Honor and integrity are more valuable than any trophy or award.

Any competitor who would put "winning" above honor is a sad individual with very little self-respect.  Why should they have my respect when they do not respect themselves enough to do the honorable and right thing.

Correction, playing by the rules is more important than any trophy or award, otherwise you're simply not playing the same game as everyone else.

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

Honor and integrity are paramount.  Honor and integrity are more valuable than any trophy or award.

Depends on the sport. In some sports, skirting the rules, or being a crafty veteran is rewarded and praised. Defining what is honorable is very subjective.

[DaveP043]

25 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that if I am presented with evidence that I unknowingly violated a rule then the committee will not have to apply a penalty - I'll apply it myself.  Whatever that penalty may be.  

Honor and integrity are paramount.  Honor and integrity are more valuable than any trophy or award.

Any competitor who would put "winning" above honor is a sad individual with very little self-respect.  Why should they have my respect when they do not respect themselves enough to do the honorable and right thing.

I'd like to believe I'd do the same, but you can't know until you've been in the situation.  For a player on the edge of losing his card, a two-stroke penalty could be the difference between making a living on tour and getting a job in the local mini-mart (I know I'm exaggerating some).  Two strokes could mean winning a player's first (or 15th, to take both extremes) major, or not.  That's a whole lot of temptation.

[Hardluckster]

20 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Correction, playing by the rules is more important than any trophy or award, otherwise you're simply not playing the same game as everyone else.

No, I completely disagree.  You can win other awards or trophies, but once you have lost your integrity it is almost impossible to reclaim.

However, in golf, an honorable person with integrity will follow the rules and impose appropriate penalties when they are deserved.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd like to believe I'd do the same, but you can't know until you've been in the situation.  For a player on the edge of losing his card, a two-stroke penalty could be the difference between making a living on tour and getting a job in the local mini-mart (I know I'm exaggerating some).  Two strokes could mean winning a player's first (or 15th, to take both extremes) major, or not.  That's a whole lot of temptation.

He still has to look his peers in the eye.

[Hardluckster]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd like to believe I'd do the same, but you can't know until you've been in the situation.  For a player on the edge of losing his card, a two-stroke penalty could be the difference between making a living on tour and getting a job in the local mini-mart (I know I'm exaggerating some).  Two strokes could mean winning a player's first (or 15th, to take both extremes) major, or not.  That's a whole lot of temptation.

I have no doubt that I would assess the penalty upon myself.  Its the way I was raised and its how I learned to play this great game.

To do otherwise, for me, would be far more painful than losing a tour card or not winning a trophy.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Hardluckster said:

No, I completely disagree.  You can win other awards or trophies, but once you have lost your integrity it is almost impossible to reclaim.

However, in golf, an honorable person with integrity will follow the rules and impose appropriate penalties when they are deserved.

The rules are more important, because you could have all the integrity and honesty in the world but be clueless about some obscure rule you just broke.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Lihu

[iacas]

Let's stick to discussing the changes announced yesterday, please.

[Hardluckster]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The rules are more important, because you could have all the integrity and honesty in the world but be clueless about some obscure rule you just broke.

Show me that I broke an obscure rule and I'm applying the appropriate penalty (or penalties).  That is my point.

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Let's stick to discussing the changes announced yesterday, please.

Apologies.  Totally my fault.

[Lihu]

Just now, Hardluckster said:

Show me that I broke an obscure rule and I'm applying the appropriate penalty (or penalties).  That is my point.

Sure, but that's because you are following the rules to the best of your ability much like all the pro players. The difference is they get televised call ins in addition to your partners who happen to see you make mistakes.

This is veering off topic, but the issue here is not that the players should be allowed to get away with violating rules. All sides think they should be penalized for the offence, the difference is should people be allowed to call in and should it be only special VRO that can change the outcome and finally the 2 stroke incorrect signed card penalty.

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Let's stick to discussing the changes announced yesterday, please.

Sorry about that. . .

[Ty_Webb]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

All sides think they should be penalized for the offence

They do? I see people suggesting that if the offence comes to light from a call-in, then the player shouldn't be penalized for the offence. That's basically the entire point of this discussion. Either the powers that be should ignore information if it comes to light via call-in or they shouldn't. I think if it comes to light that a rule was breached, then the player should get a penalty no matter how it came to light. Others disagree. 

[Lihu]

Just now, Ty_Webb said:

They do? I see people suggesting that if the offence comes to light from a call-in, then the player shouldn't be penalized for the offence. That's basically the entire point of this discussion. Either the powers that be should ignore information if it comes to light via call-in or they shouldn't. I think if it comes to light that a rule was breached, then the player should get a penalty no matter how it came to light. Others disagree. 

Didn't catch that. I made the assumption that people are either for or against the new rules as described in the OP video.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

They do? I see people suggesting that if the offence comes to light from a call-in, then the player shouldn't be penalized for the offence. That's basically the entire point of this discussion. Either the powers that be should ignore information if it comes to light via call-in or they shouldn't. I think if it comes to light that a rule was breached, then the player should get a penalty no matter how it came to light. Others disagree. 

Not only via call-ins, but spectators on the grounds witnessing and even recording video.

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Didn't catch that. I made the assumption that people are either for or against the new rules as described in the OP video.

The new rules are re: video call-ins and the assessment of the extra two-stroke penalty. Where is your mind today man?

[JetFan1983]

2 hours ago, rehmwa said:

Is this the other side's version of the 'Cheeto-eating Fat Jeff' tirade?

 

contrasted to the following concern that the other side is abused also (true as well) - just making sure we're seeing it's not the issue, it's just that this is usually expected on internet forums

 

I stand by my opinion. A number of pros showed their true colors in the wake of the Lexi penalty, both in a failure to understand the spirit of the rules and in regards to their character. I don't have to make a list of the players but it was disgusting how they demanded to know who the caller was, that it should be publicly known. That's messed up. We all know what happens when the social media hordes descend upon a single person. And yet, these pros are still considered by many to be the good guys for some reason, despite many of them campaigning for these callers to be publicly shamed.

Also, watch many of these pros give tips. They're mostly clueless. Not all of them, but most of them, so I stand by that as well.

Edited December 12, 2017 by JetFan1983

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, JetFan1983 said:

I stand by my opinion. A number of pros showed their true colors in the wake of the Lexi penalty, both in a failure to understand the spirit of the rules and in regards to their character. I don't have to make a list of the players but it was disgusting how they demanded to know who the caller was, that it should be publicly known. That's messed up. We all know what happens when the social media hordes descend upon a single person. And yet, these pros are still considered by many to be the good guys for some reason, despite many of them campaigning for these callers to be publicly shamed.

This is also wrong, but that's one reason why having special VROs can take away all this ugliness.

[NM Golf]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

The only unfair part is the 2 stroke penalty for an incorrect scorecard. The player had the responsibility to insure his score to the best of his ability, which he did. Someone calls in and says the score is incorrect, should he be assessed that scorecard penalty even though he signed it in good faith?

I would be okay with not adding the 2 extra strokes as long as the penalty itself is assessed correctly. They should know they broke a rule though they are professionals.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Not knowing the rules is intentional. There are plenty of resources out there for them to know and learn the rules of the game that's made them millionaires. They choose not to learn them. That's intent right there.

I know the rules, I was forced to learn them by my father and grandfather. Then as I grew to love the game I just wanted to play by the rules. Not knowing the rules is the worst excuse in the world for breaking them.

1 hour ago, Hardluckster said:

I can only speak for myself, but I can tell you that if I am presented with evidence that I unknowingly violated a rule then the committee will not have to apply a penalty - I'll apply it myself.  Whatever that penalty may be.  

Honor and integrity are paramount.  Honor and integrity are more valuable than any trophy or award.

Any competitor who would put "winning" above honor is a sad individual with very little self-respect.  Why should they have my respect when they do not respect themselves enough to do the honorable and right thing.

Exactly this is why I have such a hard time with these TOUR pros applauding this decision, they are basically saying we are tired of getting caught breaking the rules we want to play without having to worry about that.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Exactly this is why I have such a hard time with these TOUR pros applauding this decision, they are basically saying we are tired of getting caught breaking the rules we want to play without having to worry about that.

Actually, I think the VROs will likely catch more things than the casual observer.

I'd like to see everyone subjected to video, but it's a bit impractical and you really only need to watch the people in contention which kind of happens naturally anyway.