USGA/R&A Finalize 2019 Rules of Golf

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

This is the only relief procedure where the reference point isn't a single fixed point (e.g., where the ball is, where the ball crossed the hazard, where your last stroke was, etc.).

That's poorly worded IMO - this type of drop still has a reference point - the golfer simply gets to choose where it is.

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Unless you're dropping on the margin of the hazard, your reference point could, if you were to pick one before dropping, be in front of where your ball lands. It seems unnecessarily complicated and technical when the new rules did a really good job of making dropping less complicated.

If you don't mark a reference point, the reference point is tied to where the ball lands. I don't see that as complicated.

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I'm also having trouble seeing the reasoning behind doing this. Why couldn't the rules deem the reference point to be half a club ahead of and behind where you drop? Maybe there just isn't a good answer, so they chose this one.

Because then you'd have two different relief areas for when you marked a reference point and when you didn't.

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Finally, from an optics perspective, god help us if someone gets this penalty in a high profile situation. I don't even want to imagine the outrage if someone gets penalized 2 strokes because a dropped ball went forward 6 inches or whatever.

Meh. They played a ball forward of the reference point.

People have gotten outraged for much, much clearer violations.

18 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

So I was still curious about this, and I e-mailed the guy who put on the seminar this question. He disagreed with you, and said it's okay. Here's the my e-mail:

What are his credentials?

Also, if your music is so quiet that nobody else can hear it… what's the actual benefit to you anyway?

I'll ask in a month, but basically:

• If your music is so quiet nobody else can hear it, it's almost pointless to have it on anyway.
• If someone else can hear it, you're violating etiquette and possibly this rule.
• If you have earbuds in, you're violating this rule.

So we're almost saying the same thing, as I'm basically not really considering the first bullet point as that's kinda pointless.

[DeadMan]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

What are his credentials?

Also, if your music is so quiet that nobody else can hear it… what's the actual benefit to you anyway?

I'll ask in a month, but basically:

• If your music is so quiet nobody else can hear it, it's almost pointless to have it on anyway.
• If someone else can hear it, you're violating etiquette and possibly this rule.
• If you have earbuds in, you're violating this rule. 

So we're almost saying the same thing, as I'm basically not really considering the first bullet point as that's kinda pointless.

He's the rules chair for the Colorado Golf Association.

I think you're pretty much right, except that you could play it loud enough that your whole group could hear if it's nothing bothering them. When they presented on this at the seminar, they were really focused on saying that your music should not be loud enough to be heard outside of your group. I think it's an acknowledgement that that people like to play music while playing golf, and a change in position in that music played on a speaker isn't really going to help you.

On the back-on-the-line relief stuff, I see your point. Let's revisit it in the future, if there are any incidents or possible changes.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I think you're pretty much right, except that you could play it loud enough that your whole group could hear if it's nothing bothering them. When they presented on this at the seminar, they were really focused on saying that your music should not be loud enough to be heard outside of your group. I think it's an acknowledgement that that people like to play music while playing golf, and a change in position in that music played on a speaker isn't really going to help you.

I also think that this rule may be tightened by the conditions of competition angle for actual competitions, but they wanted the rule somewhat relaxed for general play ("handicap rounds").

[DeadMan]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I also think that this rule may be tightened by the conditions of competition angle for actual competitions, but they wanted the rule somewhat relaxed for general play ("handicap rounds").

Right, I think the expectation is that serious competitions will have the local rule that outlaws music during play. I know they said in CGA competitions, they would have that local rule in effect.

[Fourputt]

On 2/17/2019 at 6:04 PM, Asheville said:

I think not marking on BOL could lead to gaming the drop.

I strongly agree with this assessment.  I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to understand why they felt that they needed to change the location of the reference point in this situation.  What was wrong with the method for establishing the reference point in the previous version of the rules?  The reference point was either the spot where the ball last crossed into the penalty area, or in the case of the ball being unplayable, the spot where the ball lies after the previous stroke. 

I don't see how it could be much simpler than that.  As long as you went back on a line from the hole through that point, there was virtually no possibility that the ball could end up forward of that reference point after a drop.  Seems to me that this revision has made it more, rather than less confusing, and as Ashville said, it's just set up for abuse.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

I strongly agree with this assessment.  I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to understand why they felt that they needed to change the location of the reference point in this situation.  What was wrong with the method for establishing the reference point in the previous version of the rules?  The reference point was either the spot where the ball last crossed into the penalty area, or in the case of the ball being unplayable, the spot where the ball lies after the previous stroke. 

I don't see how it could be much simpler than that.  As long as you went back on a line from the hole through that point, there was virtually no possibility that the ball could end up forward of that reference point after a drop.  Seems to me that this revision has made it more, rather than less confusing, and as Ashville said, it's just set up for abuse.

I think the procedure has been made more consistent throughout.  Any time you have to drop a ball, you establish a reference point, which then defines the relief area.  The requirements for the reference point may vary from rule to rule, but you ALWAYS have a reference point, and the relief is always within a specific distance from that reference point.  The limitations for the relief area also vary somewhat, but there's always a specific relief area, and the ball when dropped has to hit the ground within the relief area, and remain in the relief area. 

Its only when you don't specifically establish a reference point that the rules step in to define the reference point for you.  But really, this isn't an additional opportunity to "game the system".  No matter where the reference point is, you can still drop right at the edge of the relief area and hope the ball will end up outside of it.   In this aspect the new rules make it a little more likely that you will eventually be able to place the ball, the ball when dropped doesn't have to move very far to end up outside the relief area.  This is counterbalanced by the lower drop height, the ball just won't bounce or roll as far.

This certainly is a change from the old rules, but to me the procedures are more consistent than before.  Determine reference point, determine relief area based on the reference point, and drop so the ball lands in and stays in the relief area.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I'm having a bit of difficulty trying to understand why they felt that they needed to change the location of the reference point in this situation.

They didn't "change" the reference point so much as they created the idea of a reference point in all situations. In dropping from shoulder height, too many people stood on the line and dropped to the side. That's now possible/allowed when before it was technically a breach.

By establishing a reference point for back-on-a-line, the rules procedures for dropping have more in common and are thus simpler.

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

What was wrong with the method for establishing the reference point in the previous version of the rules?  The reference point was either the spot where the ball last crossed into the penalty area, or in the case of the ball being unplayable, the spot where the ball lies after the previous stroke.

You still use the point at which the ball last crossed the margin (or where the ball sits for example in a bunker), but those points are not the actual "reference point" in this situation.

In 2018 you basically had to try to drop ON the reference point. In 2019 you drop in the area DEFINED by the reference point.

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I don't see how it could be much simpler than that.  As long as you went back on a line from the hole through that point, there was virtually no possibility that the ball could end up forward of that reference point after a drop.

But again that's not "the reference point."

When you take relief for ground under repair, you create a new "reference point" that is neither "where the ball last crossed into the penalty area" or "the spot where the ball lies after the previous stroke."

So they've standardized what the actual "reference point" is. Those other things you listed are no longer "reference points" in this sense. They help steer you TO the reference point, but they're just "points."

---

I'll put it another way: The relief area is the area defined by a reference point and a club measurement, often 1 but occasionally 2, in ALL relief situations.

I raised the general issue about how if you drop and your ball rolls two inches forward you're still "back on a line" to some extent, and how that shouldn't be a penalty, really… but there's something to be said for keeping things consistent. Which is why they didn't change this one to be, say, a one-club-length radius circle. No relief area (outside of replaying from the teeing area) is really larger than a half circle.

Just mark your "back on a line" reference point with a tee and be done with it. Small price to pay for consistent rules in this portion of the game, IMO.

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think the procedure has been made more consistent throughout.  Any time you have to drop a ball, you establish a reference point, which then defines the relief area.

This.

Even for free drops and "nearest point of relief" type drops, which may not have to do with "where the ball lie" or "where it crossed the margin of something."

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

In this aspect the new rules make it a little more likely that you will eventually be able to place the ball, the ball when dropped doesn't have to move very far to end up outside the relief area.  This is counterbalanced by the lower drop height, the ball just won't bounce or roll as far.

Plus not many players would choose to drop on a downslope. Not if there's flatter ground nearby.

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This certainly is a change from the old rules, but to me the procedures are more consistent than before.  Determine reference point, determine relief area based on the reference point, and drop so the ball lands in and stays in the relief area.

I agree.

(Lands in, comes to rest in, and is played from… the ball can leave the relief area so long as it comes back into it, Dave. 😄)

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

(Lands in, comes to rest in, and is played from… the ball can leave the relief area so long as it comes back into it, Dave. 😄)

Or it can come to rest in the relief area, and later roll away.  In which case, you COULD play it from outside the relief area.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

Or it can come to rest in the relief area, and later roll away.  In which case, you COULD play it from outside the relief area.  

True. Though I'm quoting from the USGA videos, so you're correct in pointing out that they goofed up. 😄

[DaveP043]

Just now, iacas said:

True. Though I'm quoting from the USGA videos, so you're correct in pointing out that they goofed up. 😄

I took the full-day rules seminar a week back, and the Rickie stuff had just come up, so this was specifically mentioned.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I took the full-day rules seminar a week back, and the Rickie stuff had just come up, so this was specifically mentioned.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

This is the video where they say what I said above.

And you're right; the last part may not always be true.

[phan52]

Our local posting season starts today and our golf committee FINALLY announced that we will continue using stroke and distance for OB and lost balls. It is really the only option for a club that has seven OB's in a row. The fights over where to drop a ball would have been calamitous. 

[Rulesman]

3 hours ago, phan52 said:

Our local posting season starts today and our golf committee FINALLY announced that we will continue using stroke and distance for OB and lost balls. It is really the only option for a club that has seven OB's in a row. The fights over where to drop a ball would have been calamitous. 

You can't not permit stroke and distance. I assume you meant  we will only be using stroke and distance

[phan52]

I think it is pretty clear that I mean we will not be using the new option as a local rule.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, phan52 said:

I think it is pretty clear that I mean we will not be using the new option as a local rule.

It is now. It wasn’t before, no, because you framed it quite oddly. 

Of course you will “continue using S&D.”

[Fourputt]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

It is now. It wasn’t before, no, because you framed it quite oddly. 

Of course you will “continue using S&D.”

.... and hopefully playing provisional balls regularly.  👍