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Patrick Reed vs. the Rules of Golf


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19 hours ago, boogielicious said:

No one has actually come out on record to implicate Reed on anything other than the waste bunker incident.

Kostis on NLU said that he has watched Reed improve his lie on multiple occasions, so this isn't correct.

 

19 hours ago, boogielicious said:

If Kostis really has instances of cheating, show us.

So you know about the pod. He came out on record to implicate Reed. He doesn't have any proof, but he explains why in the pod. Something to the tune of "I was told not to get involved in anything on course". He couldn't do anything then because of his job. If you don't believe him, that is fine, but he did implicate Reed in cheating.

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1 minute ago, Bonvivant said:

Kostis on NLU said that he has watched Reed improve his lie on multiple occasions, so this isn't correct.

 

So you know about the pod. He came out on record to implicate Reed. He doesn't have any proof, but he explains why in the pod. Something to the tune of "I was told not to get involved in anything on course". He couldn't do anything then because of his job. If you don't believe him, that is fine, but he did implicate Reed in cheating.

It is still his word we are supposed to trust but no real evidence. I would ask him if he ever saw any other Pro improve their lie. If he says yes, I would ask why he hasn’t implicated those players. If he says no, he is not telling the truth.

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3 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

It is still his word we are supposed to trust but no real evidence. I would ask him if he ever saw any other Pro improve their lie. If he says yes, I would ask why he hasn’t implicated those players. If he says no, he is not telling the truth.

There is no Santa Claus!  Tour pros improve their lies???

 

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@Bonvivant I think Jordan Spieth did this at the Masters one year. Pros do it, and you’re allowed to sole your club.

Plus as we’ve already said Kostis might dislike Reed for some reason. Why not air out others who have done this?

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7 hours ago, iacas said:

Pros do it, and you’re allowed to sole your club.

Sure. But you aren't allowed to improve your lie. If Kostis sees Reed put 3 different clubs down behind a ball that initially was buried, and now he is hitting 3 wood, I'd say that is improving the lie. That's Kostis' word, not mine. I happen to believe him though.

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5 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Sure. But you aren't allowed to improve your lie. If Kostis sees Reed put 3 different clubs down behind a ball that initially was buried, and now he is hitting 3 wood, I'd say that is improving the lie. That's Kostis' word, not mine. I happen to believe him though.

I’m starting to think this is one of those things like “backstopping” that a lot of people do.  I remember several years ago somebody on here accused Keegan Bradley of this with video and ever since then I feel like I see them do this in the rough all the time.  Several different people.  But it’s impossible to decipher between just simply soling the club and trying to improve the lie.

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5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But it’s impossible to decipher between just simply soling the club and trying to improve the lie.

I don't know what kind of (rough) grass doesn't deform when a club is placed behind it. I stopped soling my club close to the ball when in the rough a long time ago, so maybe grass has grown more springy since last I tried it. Sometimes I sole the club multiple inches behind the ball just to get a feel for where turf height is, but I don't do it close enough to the ball to make any difference to the lie.

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4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I don't know what kind of (rough) grass doesn't deform when a club is placed behind it. I stopped soling my club close to the ball when in the rough a long time ago, so maybe grass has grown more springy since last I tried it. Sometimes I sole the club multiple inches behind the ball just to get a feel for where turf height is, but I don't do it close enough to the ball to make any difference to the lie.

Wow, really? I think you are taking things a bit extreme there. You are allowed to ground the club in front or right behind the ball. 

Quote

b. Actions That Are Allowed

In preparing for or making a stroke, a player may take any of these actions and there is no penalty even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Fairly search for his or her ball by taking reasonable actions to find and identify it (see Rule 7.1a).

(2) Take reasonable actions to remove loose impediments (see Rule 15.1) and movable obstructions (see Rule 15.2).

(3) Take reasonable actions to mark the spot of a ball and to lift and replace the ball under Rules 14.1 and 14.2.

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball.

But this does not allow:

  • Pressing the club on the ground, or

  • When a ball is in a bunker, touching the sand right in front of or right behind the ball (see Rule 12.2b(1)).

From the interpretations... 

Quote
8.1b/1 – Meaning of “Ground the Club Lightly”

Rule 8.1b allows a player to ground the club lightly directly in front of or behind the ball, even if that improveshis or her lie or area of intended swing.

“Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

But the player gets the penalty under Rule 8.1a if he or she improves the lie or area of intended swing by pressing the club down more than lightly.

See Rule 12.2b(1) (When Touching Sand Results in Penalty) for when a player gets a penalty for touching sand in a bunker.

I would say, let the weight of the club press down on the ground and you are ok. 

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52 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

But it’s impossible to decipher between just simply soling the club and trying to improve the lie.

Well.....just say you have 100 yards to the green. You take your three wood and tap it down heavily behind the ball several times. Then rethink your club choice and grab a wedge. Gary Player is known for this.

As for Reed, according to Peter Kostis:

"That's the only time I ever shut [Gary] McCord up. He didn't know what to say when I said, 'Well, the lie that I saw originally wouldn't have allowed for this shot,'" Kostis said. "Because he put four or five clubs behind the ball, kind of faking whether he's going to hit this shot or hit that shot. By the time he was done, he hit a freaking 3-wood out of there, which when I saw it, it was a sand wedge layup originally."

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4 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Sure. But you aren't allowed to improve your lie.

Except that you are, under the Rules, if done so without pressing down.

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I would say, let the weight of the club press down on the ground and you are ok. 

Yep. Thanks for posting the actual rules.

3 hours ago, Shorty said:

Well.....just say you have 100 yards to the green. You take your three wood and tap it down heavily behind the ball several times.

That’s not what he did. Jeez.

Got anything recent with actual evidence beyond the 2019 Hero? No?


Some people still don’t like Tiger (‘s spectators) moving the loose impediment in Scottsdale.

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7 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Sure. But you aren't allowed to improve your lie. If Kostis sees Reed put 3 different clubs down behind a ball that initially was buried, and now he is hitting 3 wood, I'd say that is improving the lie. That's Kostis' word, not mine. I happen to believe him though.

I noted in a post above that I saw several players do this during the tournament (not Reed). I could not tell if they pressed down the grass, but they changed clubs, some more than once. Again Kostis can say whatever he wants, but without video evidence it is just his word vs Reed. And again, why doesn’t he speak out about others doing this?

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4 hours ago, iacas said:

Some people still don’t like Tiger (‘s spectators) moving the loose impediment in Scottsdale.

That was a bit ridiculous. Would any other golfer have gotten the same treatment if they asked? I don't actually hate Tiger because of that, but it was a clear blatant use of his popularity.

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I could not tell if they pressed down the grass, but they changed clubs, some more than once. Again Kostis can say whatever he wants, but without video evidence it is just his word vs Reed. And again, why doesn’t he speak out about others doing this?

That is a big thing for me. Kostis is an analysis. He should be speaking out on everyone, not just Reed. 

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8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That was a bit ridiculous. Would any other golfer have gotten the same treatment if they asked? I don't actually hate Tiger because of that, but it was a clear blatant use of his popularity.

Yeah, so?

And like four or five guys moved it. You don't think other guys would have had four or five guys standing around who would like to get involved?

I think it was an ingenious use of the Rules. It took knowing them at least somewhat to even think of it.

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What makes you think I'm referring to Reed? I was referencing the question of how one does it. And I don't think Gary Player has ever played in the Hero. ;-)

 

In the race of life, always back self-interest. At least you know it's trying.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Shorty said:

What makes you think I'm referring to Reed? I was referencing the question of how one does it. And I don't think Gary Player has ever played in the Hero. ;-)

 

Maybe Reed learned from the best!

 

Scott

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8 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That was a bit ridiculous. Would any other golfer have gotten the same treatment if they asked? I don't actually hate Tiger because of that, but it was a clear blatant use of his popularity.

People like to be involved and included. My buddy and I helped Stewart Cink avoid a lost ball penalty at Torrey the first year we went because we yelled at him that he was searching the rough in the wrong place and we didn't even know who he was at the time.  I'd be willing to bet that every player on tour, Reed included, would get that assistance if they were savvy enough to realize it was legal.  Any of the kids in the early groups where there happened to be no fans around would be out of luck obviously, but I think anybody else would get the assistance.

One exception being perhaps the away team at a Ryder Cup haha.

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5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

People like to be involved and included. My buddy and I helped Stewart Cink avoid a lost ball penalty at Torrey the first year we went because we yelled at him that he was searching the rough in the wrong place and we didn't even know who he was at the time.  I'd be willing to bet that every player on tour, Reed included, would get that assistance if they were savvy enough to realize it was legal.  Any of the kids in the early groups where there happened to be no fans around would be out of luck obviously, but I think anybody else would get the assistance.

One exception being perhaps the away team at a Ryder Cup haha.

Using other people to help has always been canny. Hit your ball into the heavy rough and some fans, spotters etc are looking for it. Take your time because the clock doesn’t start until you get there. I’ve caddied in this type of situation more than once ( it was five minutes back then). I would have thought all pros would do this. 

Stevie T

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