Question on Equity and Mud on Ball

[DeadMan]

Bad title, but this is a little complicated. Here's the facts as they were told to me:

Player A's ball is 30 feet in front of Player B's ball. Player A's ball is in the rough. Player B takes a stroke with a big divot, which results in a piece of mud attaching to Player A's ball, which was previously free of mud. 

Is Player A entitled to clean his ball?

My instinct on this was yes, because of the following two decisions: 

13-2/8

Player's Lie or Line of Play Affected by Pitch-Mark Made by Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Ball

Q.A player's lie, line of play or area of intended swing through the green is affected by a pitch-mark made by his partner's, his opponent's or a fellow-competitor's ball. Is the player entitled to repair the pitch-mark?

A.If the pitch-mark was there before the player's ball came to rest, he is not entitled to repair it if doing so would improve his lie, line of play, area of intended swing or other area covered by Rule 13-2.

If the pitch-mark was created after the player's ball came to rest, in equity (Rule 1-4), he may repair it. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him. (Revised)

13-2/8.5 

Player's Lie Affected by Sand from Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Stroke from Bunker

Q.A's ball is on the apron between the green and a bunker. A's partner, opponent or fellow-competitor (B) plays from the bunker and deposits sand on and around A's ball. Is A entitled to any relief?

A.Yes. A is entitled to the lie and line of play he had when his ball came to rest. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), he is entitled to remove the sand deposited by B's stroke and lift his ball and clean it, without penalty.

 

Both of those decisions say that you are entitled to the lie and line of play you had when your ball came to rest. My thinking was that that means Player A would be able to clean the ball to have the same lie as he did when his ball came to rest. I think 13-2/8.5 actually covers this and allows the ball to be cleaned, but I'm not sure.

Player A just played the ball without cleaning the mud, FWIW. He said he debated playing two balls but decided not to.

[Martyn W]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Bad title, but this is a little complicated. Here's the facts as they were told to me:

Player A's ball is 30 feet in front of Player B's ball. Player A's ball is in the rough. Player B takes a stroke with a big divot, which results in a piece of mud attaching to Player A's ball, which was previously free of mud. 

Is Player A entitled to clean his ball?

My instinct on this was yes, because of the following two decisions: 

13-2/8

Player's Lie or Line of Play Affected by Pitch-Mark Made by Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Ball

Q.A player's lie, line of play or area of intended swing through the green is affected by a pitch-mark made by his partner's, his opponent's or a fellow-competitor's ball. Is the player entitled to repair the pitch-mark?

A.If the pitch-mark was there before the player's ball came to rest, he is not entitled to repair it if doing so would improve his lie, line of play, area of intended swing or other area covered by Rule 13-2.

If the pitch-mark was created after the player's ball came to rest, in equity (Rule 1-4), he may repair it. A player is entitled to the lie which his stroke gave him. (Revised)

13-2/8.5 

Player's Lie Affected by Sand from Partner's, Opponent's or Fellow-Competitor's Stroke from Bunker

Q.A's ball is on the apron between the green and a bunker. A's partner, opponent or fellow-competitor (B) plays from the bunker and deposits sand on and around A's ball. Is A entitled to any relief?

A.Yes. A is entitled to the lie and line of play he had when his ball came to rest. Accordingly, in equity (Rule 1-4), he is entitled to remove the sand deposited by B's stroke and lift his ball and clean it, without penalty.

 

Both of those decisions say that you are entitled to the lie and line of play you had when your ball came to rest. My thinking was that that means Player A would be able to clean the ball to have the same lie as he did when his ball came to rest. I think 13-2/8.5 actually covers this and allows the ball to be cleaned, but I'm not sure.

Player A just played the ball without cleaning the mud, FWIW. He said he debated playing two balls but decided not to.

Your instinct is correct, the player is entitled to to the lie which his stroke gave him.

[Piz]

I lift, clean, and place, once I'm on the green.  In all other situations I play the ball as it lies.  That seems, to me, the way the game is intended to be played.  Rub of the green don't you know...

[Missouri Swede]

31 minutes ago, Piz said:

I lift, clean, and place, once I'm on the green.  In all other situations I play the ball as it lies.  That seems, to me, the way the game is intended to be played.  Rub of the green don't you know...

But not if it's caused by a fellow-competitor's actions affecting your ball in play and at rest.

[Piz]

2 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

But not if it's caused by a fellow-competitor's actions affecting your ball in play and at rest.

I agree.  Thing is...I don't recall that ever happening.

[Martyn W]

12 hours ago, Piz said:

Rub of the green don't you know...

This situation is not a rub-of-the-green.

A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency 

[Missouri Swede]

7 hours ago, Piz said:

I agree.  Thing is...I don't recall that ever happening.

OP scenario.

[Rulesman]

See post #2

[DeadMan]

Thanks for the confirmation, all. 

[edomingox]

I would say yes, free lift clean and replace.  Otherwise, I'll start trying to land my divots on their ball.

[Buckeyebowman]

I think anytime you get mud on your ball you should be entitled to at least lift, clean, and drop! if it's soggy enough, then lift, clean, and place.

If you find your ball in the short grass, and there's a glob of mud on it that weighs about 1/3 of what the ball does, what are you supposed to do? I've played in conditions so wet, just after the thaw, that even dropping from shoulder height will put mud on the ball!

And, given those early season conditions, the courses that are actually open are usually crowded. Too many guy Jonesing to play golf after a long, hard Winter. There's a lot of standing water, and there's always mud on the ball. Just how far do you want to go seeking "complete relief" from the standing water?

I've played holes where every step brought up water! Really, the course should NOT have been open! But it was, and we had groups behind us. So, we just find the nearest marginally playable lie and smack it from there.

It's not like we're playing The Masters!

[thuthu]

Follow-up question:  what of his shot after holing out?  Did it constitute practice, and if so, where is the penalty applied?

Seeing as how it wasn't intent to practice (not much different than whacking range balls absently while walking to one's ball on a hole that borders the practice tee), my guess is no penalty, but I don't know.

[DeadMan]

11 hours ago, thuthu said:

Follow-up question:  what of his shot after holing out?  Did it constitute practice, and if so, where is the penalty applied?

Seeing as how it wasn't intent to practice (not much different than whacking range balls absently while walking to one's ball on a hole that borders the practice tee), my guess is no penalty, but I don't know.

I think you're in the wrong thread.

[Fourputt]

Last tournament I played in I had a big glob of mud on my ball a couple of times after tee shots.  I just played it per the rules.  It happens.

14 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I think anytime you get mud on your ball you should be entitled to at least lift, clean, and drop! if it's soggy enough, then lift, clean, and place.

If you find your ball in the short grass, and there's a glob of mud on it that weighs about 1/3 of what the ball does, what are you supposed to do? I've played in conditions so wet, just after the thaw, that even dropping from shoulder height will put mud on the ball!

And, given those early season conditions, the courses that are actually open are usually crowded. Too many guy Jonesing to play golf after a long, hard Winter. There's a lot of standing water, and there's always mud on the ball. Just how far do you want to go seeking "complete relief" from the standing water?

I've played holes where every step brought up water! Really, the course should NOT have been open! But it was, and we had groups behind us. So, we just find the nearest marginally playable lie and smack it from there.

It's not like we're playing The Masters!

When the conditions warrant it, the "preferred lies" local rule should be used.  It should only be used when the overall course conditions are such that the lie or muddy conditions would adversely affect play in a general sense.  For an occasional case of mud on the ball, you just play it and take what comes.  That's golf.  Occasional mud and dirt are not abnormal conditions on a golf course, and nowhere is it stated that you are entitled to pristine conditions and a spotless ball except on the green.

[Rulesman]

c. Cleaning Ball

Conditions, such as extreme wetness causing significant amounts of mud to adhere to the ball, may be such that permission to lift, clean and replace the ball would be appropriate. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:

"(Specify area, e.g., at the 6th hole, on a closely-mown area, anywhere through the green, etc.) a ball may be lifted and cleaned without penalty. The ball must be replaced.

Note: The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under this Local Rule - see Rule 20-1.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Rulesman