Holed or no?

[Grinde6]

Rules experts...Is this ball holed?  Does rule 17/4 or 16/3 come into play here?  

[Club Rat]

I believe not until the ball comes to rest in the bottom of the cup.
The player should lift the pin and if the ball falls into the hole, then it would be holed.

[Martyn W]

  On 8/30/2018 at 12:41 PM, Grinde6 said:

Rules experts...Is this ball holed?  Does rule 17/4 or 16/3 come into play here?  

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Not holed. See the definition: A ball is "holed" when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole.

[Grinde6]

Let me rephrase it, as I know it’s not holed by the picture, poor wording on my part.  If the pin gets pulled and the ball falls in the cup, is it considered holed with the last shot?  The ball left an indentation in the side of the cup.  I’m just not sure if one should proceed under 17/4 or 16/3 for embedded ball since it did leave an indentation. 

[Jeremie Boop]

It only seems to be held out of the cup by the serious lean the flagstick has. Lots of wind or was it not put back in properly?

[Martyn W]

  On 8/30/2018 at 1:10 PM, Grinde6 said:

Let me rephrase it, as I know it’s not holed by the picture, poor wording on my part.  If the pin gets pulled and the ball falls in the cup, is it considered holed with the last shot?  The ball left an indentation in the side of the cup.  I’m just not sure if one should proceed under 17/4 or 16/3 for embedded ball since it did leave an indentation. 

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17-4 ('/' denotes a decision, not a Rule subsection) is applicable. If the ball does not fall into the hole then yes, D16/3 applies

[Piz]

Know...it isn't hold.  It will be, however, once the pin is removed.

[Fourputt]

  On 8/30/2018 at 1:10 PM, Grinde6 said:

Let me rephrase it, as I know it’s not holed by the picture, poor wording on my part.  If the pin gets pulled and the ball falls in the cup, is it considered holed with the last shot?  The ball left an indentation in the side of the cup.  I’m just not sure if one should proceed under 17/4 or 16/3 for embedded ball since it did leave an indentation. 

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One bit of advice, don't just pull the flagstick from the hole.  Straighten it and let the ball drop into the hole, then you can remove it without worry.  If you yank it out and knock the ball away from the hole, then you haven't holed out.

  Quote

17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player's ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

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If the ball is not allowed to fall into the hole, then it takes another stroke to hole out.

[p1n9183]

Move the flag or take it out gently and it will fall in the cup. Birdie for u!

Another question to the topic, same escenario but a playing parter take out the flag agresivelly and our ball fly away from the hole and land let say 20 feet from it. You have to putt it or either way it is considered holed??

[Rulesman]

17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player's ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

17-4/3  Ball Resting Against Flagstick Moves Away from Hole When Flagstick Removed by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor

Q.A player's ball is resting against the flagstick. Without the player's authority, his opponent or a fellow-competitor removes the flagstick and the ball moves away from the hole. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, the opponent incurs a penalty stroke and the ball must be replaced against the flagstick (Rule 18-3b).

In stroke play, the ball must be replaced against the flagstick without penalty to anyone (Rule 18-4).

In either form of play, the player may then move or remove the flagstick as prescribed in Rule 17-4.

[Grinde6]

  On 8/30/2018 at 6:42 PM, Rulesman said:

17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player's ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

17-4/3  Ball Resting Against Flagstick Moves Away from Hole When Flagstick Removed by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor

Q.A player's ball is resting against the flagstick. Without the player's authority, his opponent or a fellow-competitor removes the flagstick and the ball moves away from the hole. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, the opponent incurs a penalty stroke and the ball must be replaced against the flagstick (Rule 18-3b).

In stroke play, the ball must be replaced against the flagstick without penalty to anyone (Rule 18-4).

In either form of play, the player may then move or remove the flagstick as prescribed in Rule 17-4.

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So even if the ball is embedded a bit, rule 17-4 applies first?  

[Club Rat]

  On 8/30/2018 at 6:43 PM, Grinde6 said:

rule 17-4 applies first?  

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Yes, but if the ball is embedded where it does not fall into the hole when the flagstick is remove, ball is considered "embedded" and not holed.
Very rarely will a ball be in such a position, but it can and has happened.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Club Rat

[Asheville]

Let's be sure to make a clear distinction between this ball's situation on the putting green and a Rule 25 Embedded Ball. The latter can only occur through the green.

[Club Rat]

  On 8/30/2018 at 9:34 PM, Asheville said:

Let's be sure to make a clear distinction between this ball's situation on the putting green

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Can you explain the situation when a ball is oblivious "embedded on the green" when it stuck in the edge of the hole.
I should have used the term plugged? My understanding, the ball may be marked and placed on the lip, then tapped in.

My above comment was pertaining to situations when a ball is plugged in the green, or sometimes referred as embedded.
I understand what you are stating, the Embedded Ball ruling does not occur on a green and the Embedded Ball Ruling is only through the green.

[Moxley]

  On 8/30/2018 at 4:55 PM, Fourputt said:

One bit of advice, don't just pull the flagstick from the hole.  Straighten it and let the ball drop into the hole, then you can remove it without worry.  If you yank it out and knock the ball away from the hole, then you haven't holed out.

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Is this allowed ? 

[Martyn W]

  On 8/31/2018 at 9:56 AM, Moxley said:

Is this allowed ? 

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Yes, @Rulesman posted the Rule (17-4) earlier in the thread

Edited August 31, 2018 by Martyn W

[Moxley]

Yes, but I meant is it allowable to straighten the flagpole first. Of course, the flag would normally be lifted from a straight(ish) position , but in this case it's leaning ,and if I move the stick around prior to lifting it, there's been an effort to achieve a specific outcome. Not saying that's wrong, just curious. 

 

[Fourputt]

  On 8/31/2018 at 2:00 PM, Moxley said:

Yes, but I meant is it allowable to straighten the flagpole first. Of course, the flag would normally be lifted from a straight(ish) position , but in this case it's leaning ,and if I move the stick around prior to lifting it, there's been an effort to achieve a specific outcome. Not saying that's wrong, just curious. 

 

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As long as the movement of the ball is only a result of straightening the flagstick, it is considered holed. 

You are also allowed to straighten the flagstick before playing your stroke (from off the green), but if the flagstick needs to be held to keep it straight, then it is being attended and must be removed before the ball strikes it.  Around here, the wind blows so constantly that the socket in the hole liners tend to wear and the stick will not stand straight unless it is tended.  The 9 hole course near my home operates on a tight budget, so they use the liners as long as possible, resulting in some pretty wobbly pins after a couple of years.  

With the new rules next year, you will be able to leave the flagstick in the hole when putting too, so this condition may occur more frequently.   It's good to know how to proceed with it.