Does Modern Golf Instruction Always Help?

[Patch]

I think a good question a golfer might ask themself, is if they are smart enough to distinguish between good, and bad instruction. 

How one might educate themself to know the difference might be a challenge. Other than by trial, and error, I am not sure how a golfer could learn the difference. 

[iacas]

 

Bummed to see that @Don Golfo can't withstand a question about his qualifications, but that topic right there was created partly in response to topics like this one.

[CaddyCarl]

My two cents is, swinging a stick and hitting an object is a perfectly natural movement for a human to do. We've been swinging sticks and hitting things since the dawn of man. Our bodies and minds are wonderfully adaptive to using tools. The first dude that decided to hit a stone with a stick, to while away the time, would have quit doing it if he didn't become reasonably proficient at it in short order. We've all done it as kids. Pick up a stone, flip it in the air, and hit it with a stick. An afternoon of doing that and you get pretty good at it. No batting coach required. Sure, elite golf is a different animal that requires focused training and practice, and elite ballstriking is not a natural talent, and needs to be taught, because it requires elite technique. But the core skill of swinging a stick and hitting something is entirely natural, IMO. Sorry for the rant, but that blanket statement that man did not evolve with the natural ability to hit a ball with a stick is bs, IMO. Golf is not hard, and does not require instruction, past a brief introduction to it's fundamentals. You get better by playing. Competitive golf is hard, and probably requires instruction, because of the introduction of the concepts of distance and precision. But then again, what the hell do I know.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

My two cents is, swinging a stick and hitting an object is a perfectly natural movement for a human to do. We've been swinging sticks and hitting things since the dawn of man.

What evolutionary type of behavior does swinging a golf club at a ball on the ground mimic?

It's not running, walking, or crawling. It's not punching or hitting or kicking. It's not feeding yourself, or even comforting someone else by hugging or anything.

It's not throwing, nor is it chopping or anything like that, which are all overhanded motions. Throwing underhanded is one-sided and is face-on, not side-on.

So, I disagree that swinging a stick at a thing on the ground to propel it forward is nothing like a "natural movement."

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

Our bodies and minds are wonderfully adaptive to using tools.

I agree. But… we still have to learn to do it, and as we've trademarked… "Golf is hard.^®".

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

The first dude that decided to hit a stone with a stick, to while away the time, would have quit doing it if he didn't become reasonably proficient at it in short order.

I don't agree. He only had to become slightly more proficient at it than his buddy… or someone else. And, since he had no idea how "proficient" you could get, even hitting the ball 80% of the time sending it an average of 20 feet might seem "proficient" to him.

Look at kids doing things. They'll brag and beg you to watch them do the lamest of things, because they have no idea how lame they are. They haven't built up a concept of what a good piano player actually is, or whatever. (I'm talking about kids only in this context - yes, it's still amazing that your kid learned to play Yankee Doodle on the piano in a day and a half. That's great for a six-year-old, or whatever. But again, I'm talking about only this context.)

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

Pick up a stone, flip it in the air, and hit it with a stick. An afternoon of doing that and you get pretty good at it.

That's far, far, far simpler than playing golf.

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

But the core skill of swinging a stick and hitting something is entirely natural, IMO.

Still gonna disagree with you.

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

Golf is not hard

Yeah, it is. There's a reason we trademarked the phrase above.

1 hour ago, CaddyCarl said:

does not require instruction

Riiiiiiight.

---

Dude, you list your handicap as "25+".

[ChetlovesMer]

My 2 cents. As a student who has really improved a ton over the last 2-3 years by taking lessons. 

- I could NOT have improved as much as I have without taken lessons. I'm sure with hard work and trial and error I could have gotten better. But not nearly as much without the help I've received. 

Here's my question for those of you who believe in taking lessons to improve. Should you stick with one swing coach? Or should you switch things up either occasionally or often and use more than one swing coach?

The reason I ask is it seems like in other sports more coaching = better. Example: all the players on my high school football team would go to football camp and get coached by different coaches. Then we'd come back and get coached by our coach. Nobody ever said "Oh, no you should stick with one coach." But in golf if I suggest to somebody to get a lesson from a different coach a lot of them lose their minds. "I don't want that guy screwing up what I'm working on with my guy. … etc... etc... " Are the fundamentals the fundamentals and wouldn't learning them from a different perspective help? 

I'm interested to hear your thoughts. 

[CaddyCarl]

Look, I've been on this website long enough to recognize how this is about to go for me, and that's ok. I expected to catch hell, but my opinions are my opinions, and nothing you said changed my mind. I'm of the mind that swinging a stick and hitting a target, whether it's a ball or a pinata, is an entirely natural thing, that doesn't take a whole lot of instruction or repetition to be reasonable at. We had to take my sand wedge out of my 7 year old grandson's hands because he couldn't keep the ball in the back yard. Kept hitting it in the street, 60 yds away. Repeatedly.  He was 4' tall. With my wedge. To him, the club was so heavy he had to pick it up, put it on his right shoulder, take a half squat and almost jump off the ground to get it moving, then swing his hands as hard as he could in the direction he wanted the ball to go, and there it went. I've never taught him a thing about swinging a club, because he has zero interest in sports. He just wanted to play around with Poppy, and was mimicing(sp?) me as best as he was able. My whole point was, and I concede I didn't do the best job of making it, people have far more innate physical ability than they're led to believe. Maybe I should have just said that, and been done with it. And finally, I'm a 57 year old, disabled, stage 4 cancer survivor, with spinal degradation. I fatigue easily, and have issues with balance, memory, and focus, due to extensive chemotherapy and radiation. I cannot play or practice much. In my opinion, a score of 95 is perfectly acceptable for a man in my state. So, screw you, dude

[TRUCKER]

Here's a question. Who decided what the golf swing should be? When golf was "invented", somebody, the first person to ever swing a golf club, was it not "their natural" swing that they just made up without anybody telling them it was right or wrong? So who's to decide golf is hard? It wasn't for that guy. Didn't Lee Trevino say "I'll take a lesson from a golf pro when I find one that can beat me".

[saevel25]

17 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Here's a question. Who decided what the golf swing should be?

Basically, the history of all golfers have decided what a golf swing should be 😉 That is how progress works in sports.

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by saevel25

[dennyjones]

15 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

So who's to decide golf is hard?

I don't think this need an answer.    Anybody that has ever played will attest to the game being hard.

[TRUCKER]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's easy to take evidence over the majority of golfs history on what the best players do really well. 

Basically, the history of all golfers have decided what a golf swing should be 😉 That is how progress works in sports.

 

So everybody went off one mans swing he made up himself? Ok.

[Vinsk]

15 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Here's a question. Who decided what the golf swing should be? When golf was "invented", somebody, the first person to ever swing a golf club, was it not "their natural" swing that they just made up without anybody telling them it was right or wrong? So who's to decide golf is hard? It wasn't for that guy. Didn't Lee Trevino say "I'll take a lesson from a golf pro when I find one that can beat me".

Like @saevel25 said. It happens in just about every sport. Remember how they used to perform the high jump? The long jump? The free throw? Somebody keeps experimenting (usually an unnatural movement or feeling) and when the results are consistently superior that technique is mimicked.

[Buckeyebowman]

13 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Here's a question. Who decided what the golf swing should be? When golf was "invented", somebody, the first person to ever swing a golf club, was it not "their natural" swing that they just made up without anybody telling them it was right or wrong? So who's to decide golf is hard? It wasn't for that guy. Didn't Lee Trevino say "I'll take a lesson from a golf pro when I find one that can beat me".

Well, they can ALL beat me so sign me up. I think you rubbed right up against the truth there. The guys who could beat everybody kind of decided what the golf swing should be. And the fact that they could impart that information to others and help them improved their play helped establish that idea. 

And let's not forget how the golf swing, as well as the equipment, has changed over the years. Just in my lifetime I've seen quite a few iterations of the golf swing. 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, TRUCKER said:

So everybody went off one mans swing he made up himself? Ok.

Nope, not one person. 

Each golfer, at some capacity, does things that the best golfers do. If they do these things really well they are better golfers. These were not discovered at the inception of golf, but developed organically overtime. That is how sports progress. The first ones to playing the game figure out part of the best ways to play the sport. Give the game over 100 years and the best in the sport do what the originators tried to figure out but only exponentially better. It's because they have the trial and error knowledge of those who failed before them. 

[TRUCKER]

You said it! The swing was developed "organically" over time. Through discovery and experimenting with different swings. So the swing is a lot more "natural" than people think.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

You said it! The swing was developed "organically" over time. Through discovery and experimenting with different swings. So the swing is a lot more "natural" than people think.

That doesn't make it "natural."

We can all learn to type. Keyboard layouts, etc. were developed over time.

Typing is not "natural."

[TRUCKER]

I've had 4 lessons from a mediocre at best pro 4 years ago. At that time I said if I could just get to an 18 HC I would never look back. I got down to 12.5 and I'm trending to a 13 now. Not one lesson since. I play twice a week average throughout the year. NO PRACTICE. Just played and "naturally" through my own discovery made myself in the golf world to be an above average player. (average HC is 16).

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

I've had 4 lessons from a mediocre at best pro 4 years ago. At that time I said if I could just get to an 18 HC I would never look back. I got down to 12.5 and I'm trending to a 13 now. Not one lesson since. I play twice a week average throughout the year. NO PRACTICE. Just played and "naturally" through my own discovery made myself in the golf world to be an above average player. (average HC is 16).

So?

I got down to a 1.3 index without having ever taken a lesson.

So again, I'll ask: "so?"

I'm not saying that sarcastically. I'm asking. What point do you think you're making being a 13 index?

[saevel25]

35 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

You said it! The swing was developed "organically" over time. Through discovery and experimenting with different swings. So the swing is a lot more "natural" than people think.

You extract meaning when there wasn't intent. 

My point is. 

PGA Tour players today have over 100+ years of golfer's failures to help them train themselves to swing the golf club in a way that is measurably better. They wouldn't be as good otherwise. there organic swing would probably not cut it. 

18 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

I play twice a week average throughout the year. NO PRACTICE. Just played and "naturally" through my own discovery made myself in the golf world to be an above average player. (average HC is 16).

You may be scratch if you took lessons and practiced in the correct way 😉