Embedded Balls in the Lip or Wall of a Bunker

[gbogey]

But still have complexities.  I noticed yesterday there is an illustration that indicates that a ball in the wall or face of a bunker is not in the bunker, but no clear discussion of what this means.  To be clear, the illustration has the ball clearly in the sand of the bunker wall, not the grass/lip area,

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, gbogey said:

But still have complexities.  I noticed yesterday there is an illustration that indicates that a ball in the wall or face of a bunker is not in the bunker, but no clear discussion of what this means.  To be clear, the illustration has the ball clearly in the sand of the bunker wall, not the grass/lip area,

At the risk of being off the specific topic for a few posts… I'm not sure what you mean by "but no clear discussion of what this means."

It means that the ball is either in the bunker or not, and then the Rules that apply are based on that fact. The location of the ball is always important when applying the Rules.

[gbogey]

I'll be glad to take this question to another discussion, but the Players guide says a ball that touches the sand inside the edge of a bunker is in the bunker and then provides an illustration that says a ball in the face of the bunker is not in the bunker.  Seems to be contradictory.  Also embedded ball rules clearly prohibit taking relief from in the bunker.  So the illustration is by itself complex and unclear.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'll be glad to take this question to another discussion, but the Players guide says a ball that touches the sand inside the edge of a bunker is in the bunker and then provides an illustration that says a ball in the face of the bunker is not in the bunker.  Seems to be contradictory.  Also embedded ball rules clearly prohibit taking relief from in the bunker.  So the illustration is by itself complex and unclear.

No need to start another topic.

A ball completely embedded or resting on the face of the bunker isn't touching the sand in that bunker. I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

Ball in the sand = in the bunker.
Ball not in the sand = not in the bunker.

[Rulesman]

41 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'll be glad to take this question to another discussion, but the Players guide says a ball that touches the sand inside the edge of a bunker is in the bunker and then provides an illustration that says a ball in the face of the bunker is not in the bunker.  Seems to be contradictory.  Also embedded ball rules clearly prohibit taking relief from in the bunker.  So the illustration is by itself complex and unclear.

Your ball is in a bunker when any part of it touches sand on the ground inside the edge of the bunker.

If your ball lies on soil or grass or other growing or attached natural objects inside the edge of the bunker without touching sand, your ball is not in the bunker.

The illustration is pretty clear

Edited January 21, 2019 by Rulesman

[gbogey]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

No need to start another topic.

A ball completely embedded or resting on the face of the bunker isn't touching the sand in that bunker. I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

Ball in the sand = in the bunker.
Ball not in the sand = not in the bunker.

I guess the faces I'm used to are covered with sand, so that's confusing me, but I'm interpreting this as a ball embedded in the face is now subject to embedded ball relief, or did I get that wrong again?

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I guess the faces I'm used to are covered with sand, so that's confusing me, but I'm interpreting this as a ball embedded in the face is now subject to embedded ball relief, or did I get that wrong again?

The face isn't covered in sand in this example.

And yes, a ball embedded not in the bunker is likely in the general area.

[RemyM]

11 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I guess the faces I'm used to are covered with sand, so that's confusing me, but I'm interpreting this as a ball embedded in the face is now subject to embedded ball relief, or did I get that wrong again?

If it's not in the bunker and embedded in sand:

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area:

• When your ball is embedded in sand in a part of the general area that is not cut to fairway height or less

[iacas]

1 minute ago, RemyM said:

If it's not in the bunker and embedded in sand:

Exceptions – When Relief Not Allowed for Ball Embedded in General Area:

• When your ball is embedded in sand in a part of the general area that is not cut to fairway height or less

Commonly, this will be seen in what many call "waste bunkers" and similar types of things.

If there's a little sand splashed up on the lip of a bunker, but the ball is otherwise not in the bunker, it's still in the general area and entitled to relief if it's embedded.

But, often, good luck finding a relief area in that case…

[RemyM]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Commonly, this will be seen in what many call "waste bunkers" and similar types of things.

If there's a little sand splashed up on the lip of a bunker, but the ball is otherwise not in the bunker, it's still in the general area and entitled to relief if it's embedded.

But, often, good luck finding a relief area in that case…

I've played plenty of public courses that will have a good amount of sand splashed outside the bunker that would not entitle you to relief if embedded in.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, RemyM said:

I've played plenty of public courses that will have a good amount of sand splashed outside the bunker that would not entitle you to relief if embedded in.

Sure, but that's because you're embedded in sand, not in the ground.

The main purpose of the "sand" thing is so that people aren't taking relief in waste areas or the occasional sand-filled divot hole.

As this topic grew beyond the "few" off-topic responses I thought it would generate, I moved the posts into a new topic.

[DaveP043]

53 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I guess the faces I'm used to are covered with sand, so that's confusing me, but I'm interpreting this as a ball embedded in the face is now subject to embedded ball relief, or did I get that wrong again?

This specific case was addressed in the Rules Clarifications that came out after the full Rules were released:

Quote

 Rule 16.3b:

1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:
If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.
For example, free relief is not allowed if:
- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,
- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and
- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area. (Added 12/2018)

So yes, a ball embedded in the face of the bunker may be in the General Area, and so could be subject to free relief.  However, in that case, you may not have an acceptable Relief Area available.  It would depend on where the ball is, the shape of the bunker, and the direction to the hole. 

These Clarifications are included at the very end of the online Rules.  I don't see them on the phone app.  I haven't seen a hard copy of the new rules yet, so I don't know whether they're included or not.

[gbogey]

Not to poop on the new rules but I think it would have been simpler to say that the face of the bunker is in the bunker since the embedded ball into the face will almost never allow relief.  

[bkuehn1952]

One has a ball embedded in the stacked sod face of a bunker.  One is not permitted to  drop in the bunker (correct?) and let's say the position of the embedded ball makes it impossible to have a spot no closer to the hole and outside the bunker.

What are your options?  Play the ball or return to the spot where one last hit with a 1 stroke penalty?  Are there other options (besides quitting this infernal game 😉)

 

p.s. @DaveP043 I think we were partners when I had the unfortunate opportunity to experience this situation.  As I recall, I just allowed you to birdie the hole to win it for our team.

Edited January 21, 2019 by bkuehn1952

[gbogey]

Obviously I'm not a rules expert but I would think that you have the option of taking an unplayable lie, in which case you get 2 club lengths to try to find a suitable relief area (with stroke penalty) or which I think would allow you take a drop in the bunker (but with a stroke penalty).  I'm not sure if either of these is better than whacking at the embedded ball and hoping for the best.

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Not to poop on the new rules but I think it would have been simpler to say that the face of the bunker is in the bunker since the embedded ball into the face will almost never allow relief.  

But then you'd be restricting people who aren't actually "in" the bunker to playing the ball as if it was in the bunker, with all of the limitations and rules around that difference.

Of course, that's basically how the Rules were prior to 2018 (stacked sod faces were still through the green), so they very actively changed this particular rule.

[bkuehn1952]

40 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Obviously I'm not a rules expert but I would think that you have the option of taking an unplayable lie, in which case you get 2 club lengths to try to find a suitable relief area (with stroke penalty) or which I think would allow you take a drop in the bunker (but with a stroke penalty).  I'm not sure if either of these is better than whacking at the embedded ball and hoping for the best.

Yes, you are correct about unplayable getting one an additional club length. Had not thought of that. I am not sure about dropping in the bunker.  I know one formerly was prohibited from dropping in a hazard or bunker when taking relief from a position outside the hazard or bunker.

[sjduffers]

5 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Yes, you are correct about unplayable getting one an additional club length. Had not thought of that. I am not sure about dropping in the bunker.  I know one formerly was prohibited from dropping in a hazard or bunker when taking relief from a position outside the hazard or bunker.

Not sure about that either, but you would think that with 2 clubs lengths with the unplayable, you'd find a spot to drop outside the bunker (on grass), as the face is really close to that grass, by definition. Of course, you'd have to find a spot no nearer the hole and in some cases not finding such a spot may be the issue.